Saturday, March 29, 2008

Holy or Hoax?

There has always been stories of people being raised from the dead. In fact there is a book called, ""Saints Who Raised the Dead" which has "True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles" written by Fr. Albert J. Hebert, S.M. Currently there are tons of reports of miracles of people being raised from the dead. Here are a few:

Heidi Baker, under her ministry thousands have been raised from the dead
David Hogan, under his ministry (Freedom Ministries Mexico) there have been over 400 people raised
Reinhard Bonnke, under his ministry people have been raised
Scott Holtz ministry has raised people from the dead
A friend of mines friend does mission trips to remote Aboriginal towns and under this ministry people have been raised from the dead
Teresa Neumann from breaking Christian News reported on February 21st 2008 of people being raised from the dead in India leading to mass conversions
There are over 600 videos on youtube on people being raised from the dead
In some places in PNG where my friends have ministered raising the dead is so common that they (communities of PNG people) pray for the dead to be raised at every funeral! Its simply what they do! Its their culture!
There have been reports of African Salvation Army Officers (who are still in big appointments) have raised the dead too.
Someone mentioned to me that "Onfire" printed an article of someone raising from the dead

So, heres the question. "Has every person who has ever claimed someone has raised from the dead in their ministry/experience been a false prophet?"

If we say yes. 1) That would mean alot, and i mean alot of lying. It would mean that the worlds Christian Spiritual leaders are all liars. It would mean that all these people are lying for no reason. This view does not make sense! These Christian leaders who love people, who give their life away for people, are lying... What a stupid comment. And fame? Are they after fame? Why would they elaborate on dead people rising from the dead? It does not make sense.

2) Perhaps they would say something like, "They weren't really dead." Where does this question come from? It comes from a heart that does not want to believe. People in 3rd world countries know when people are dead. They live amongst the dead, it is regular for them to be amongst the dead. So when they say they're dead, they're dead. And even if they got it wrong 9 out of 10 times that still means at least hundreds have been raised...

Those two statements are terrible. They are fueled by doubt, unbelief and a very negative view on Christian leadership.

If we say "No" they are not all hoaxes, then we need to admit that atleast some people have been raised from the dead.

Why can people not accept the fact that people have been raised from the dead? As for wanting death certificates, if you have been raised from the dead you dont need one! So, of course theres no death certificate! Thats because they came back to life!!! (also, there are people who have death certificates and display them proudly when they testify...)

The fact of the matter is if you say people dont get raised from the dead then you are saying that pretty much all Christian leaders throughout time have been liars or stupid. And I am not game to say that. That view in my opinion comes from a view that lacks any faith whatsoever, it lacks discernment, it lacks respect, it lacks an understanding of Jesus command for us, me and you, to "raise the dead."

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

What does 'dead' mean James? It is not when a persons heart stops beating, as they can still be revived from that state. When the electrical impulses of the brain cease, that is closer to true death, although the body can still be kept 'alive' by means of life support. So for a person to be truly pronounced dead, there should be no brain impulses, no heartbeat and no breathing. So using that as a true definition of death, please direct me to any evidence of people being independently medically verified as dead and subsequently coming back to life. Surely if there have been thousands of raisings from the dead as you claim, there should be many verifiable examples on record. It doesn't happen James, and your obsession with this detracts from the good that you do in your community. What's wrong with simply proclaiming the gospel message and loving others? Surely God doesn't need dubious claims about miracles to be used to bring people to faith in Him?

Anonymous said...

http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_bonnke.html

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/rbonnke.html

http://www.pfo.org/hinnhbo.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Benny_Hinn.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac13.htm

MERCYPEACEGRACE said...

Luke 16:
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

james said...

God bless you anon. Thanks for all your comments. I agree to disagree. Especially since you didnt comment on the actual blog I wrote! You never answered whether you think all these great men and women of God are liars and or stupid...

my evidence is in the word of great men and women of God. Ordinary men and women of God who testify that it has been done. i know a man who has done it, so do lots of my friends. There is more evidence in bonnke videos, testimony websites, and newspaper articles. And perhaps one of the greatest pieces of evidence i have is that in some tribes it is simply routine to have prayers for raising the dead at funerals. Some times it happens sometimes it doesnt. But is does. AND THE BIBLE PROMISES IT...

I appreciate your concern, it shows that you care about the body of Christ and pre-believers etc. But we disagree and thats it.

i believe Jesus wants us to preach the good news, love God and love others, heal the sick, raise the dead, drive out demons and I will stand fast to that and will continue to preach and teach that all over the world.

So instead of going around in circles, i believe God raises the dead and you dont. Lets let people decide whether or not they think God raises the dead.

i thank God for watchmen, those that watch over the body of Christ, much like you are doing now. so, third time now, if you want to chat and pray about this, if you want to warn me further, if you feel really strongly that Im doing the wrong thing then email me and lets catch up or speak to each other on the phone. reelbigjimmy@hotmail.com.

thanks!

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

Are you up for a few questions?

Do you believe in miracles? These are things that do not happen all the time, that's what I mean by miracles. Things that are seemingly impossible, defy all odds, cannot be explained, yet occur at just the right moment and in just the right way to bring about a perfect outcome. A Divine outcome. Do you believe God can and does perform miracles? If so:


http://www.raised-from-the-dead.org.uk/accounts/m/mccormack-ian-s1-all.php


There is no proof in this that will convince you, but I ask, what would this man have to gain by making this story up? Don't you think the doctors and nurses would have known whether this man was dead or not, and if he was alive why would they be poking his feet with a scalpel, and why were they all so shocked when he returned to life and opened his eyes?

There is nobody standing there physically raising him back to life, but his prayers and those of his mother were answered. How did his mother know to pray at that moment?

I don't know if this story is true. If my mind is closed I will demand worldly evidence, paperwork, etc.

If we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we will see how great and powerful our God is. We don't need God to perform magic or put on shows for us, we know that nothing is impossible for Him. Just because I can't do it, doesn't mean He can't.

God is not going to raise everybody from the dead - we all have to die sometime - but God promised the Holy Spirit's Power to the obedient disciples, in the Book of Acts. The same Book records accounts of the Spirit's Power. Where does it say that this Power is limited, or cuts out after a number of centuries? Or wasn't it true in the first place?

So, my questions to myself, and you are:

1. Faith based: Is it possible for God to restore somebody from death to life?

2. Reason based: Why would this man lie?

3. Outcome based: Whose purposes are being served, and who is being glorified?

My take - I could never limit God to do only what I think is possible. He never ceases to amaze me and go over and beyond my own meagre human understanding. The man was returned to life for a purpose, and this purpose was God's purpose. This is truly God glorifying. Why does it offend you so much?

Faith

Simon Mapleback said...

My God told me this will happen, and sure enough it is!

Join me in praying that we will see the dead raised FIRST hand by the end of THIS year - deal or no deal?!

Once we have seen it, there is no reason to doubt God anymore - ok Thomas - doubting God is evil - caused by evil!

The Bible promises we can raise the dead - sure God won't let everyone that dies be raised - as James in his wisdom said - we all have to die soemtime, but not all in the right season - God want's us to take Him up on His word!

I've seen the rest of God's promises in action, so why would I not believe He can raise the dead - I've seen the sick healed, and demons drivin out all in Jesus Name - I've seen the lost saved - and the doubters beleive...

I'll pray the same prayer I left on the previous blog for you - re-read it if you need

Pete Brookshaw said...

Those websites listed in the second comment rise up in me a righteous anger! Ergh! People intent on bringing others down and so quickly claiming them to be false prophets.

I will not hold fast to a gospel of simply love of others and good works. These may be a foundation, but more can happen within this love and good works!

God, help us to see what you see, and to fix our eyes of Jesus...

Anonymous said...

Matthew 12:39

Matthew 24:24

1 Corinthians 1:22

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

I asked you if you were up for some questions not to antagonise you, but to genuinely try to understand your position. You have taken a big step of faith by commenting on a blog site you clearly don't agree with, and as a Christian, this would take some courage. You have not chosen to leave your name, and I can understand that too. The Scripture references you left in your last comment make me wonder whether this is your answer to the questions I asked you, or have you chosen not to answer, but to argue instead.

I was trying to find out from you whether you believe GOD can perform miracles, and if so, is it possible HE can use people to do this and bring about HIS purposes. This was relating to HIS power and glory, not the men and women HE uses.

The Bible verses you quote suggest that it is wrong to demand signs, but they also suggest that it is wrong to depend solely on human wisdom. They warn of false prophets, and rightly so, there are many. Does this mean that everyone who has an answer to prayer, or a miracle performed in or through them is a false prophet? The verse is not saying this, it is saying to beware of the false ones, indicating that for there to be false ones in the first place, there must also be genuine ones.

Again, I am not being antagonistic, just trying to get a handle on where you are coming from. Would you explain how the Book of Acts fits with the Scripture References you quote. Interesting is that Acts is to be found somewhere between Matthew and 1 Corinthians.

Faith

Anonymous said...

Faith, I will attempt to answer you as best I can. Firstly, do I believe that God can raise people from the dead? Yes, of course He is capable of it. Do I believe He does today? No, because there is no independently verifiable evidence of someone who is genuinely dead being raised. If there were as many raisings as are claimed, there should be numerous cases that can be fully investigated and verified, but there aren't. So that leads me to a reasonable conclusion that it just doesn't happen today.

As to why people would claim these things, I believe there are a number of reasons. Sometimes I think they are genuinely mistaken - someone appears dead, but is not 'fully' dead (see my basic definition in the first post) and are then revived. Some people seem so desperate to see a miracle that if they see something that at first glance appears miraculous they proclaim it as such without any examination of the facts. I think there are also cases where there is deliberate exaggeration and deceit going on in order to elevate someone's 'ministry' in order for them to gain power, prestige and money. Benny Hinn is an obvious example to me, and even though some who read this blog will think Hinn to be a great man of God, I think there is ample evidence that he is a fraud.

I reject the idea that it is a lack of faith on my behalf that I won't believe peoples stories about people being healed. There is so much of Christianity that must be purely based on faith - the very existence of God, the birth, death, resurrection and divinity of Jesus. We cannot ultimately 'prove' any of these - we believe by faith. Why is it so unreasonable to ask for proof of things that should be readily provable in the here and now?

james said...

anon, once again if you were serious about you thinking we are dangerous to the church why not try and email me? reelbigjimmy@hotmail.com

As for proof of healings, email me and I will personally take you to the people who were healed at easter camp so you can see that God is not dead, rather He is alive and in the business of healing people. Just like He always has been.

And lastly, who cares about Benny Hinn, Ive never mentioned him, ive always thought there was something a little bit dodgey with him too. But check my post again to see who I think are good...

That out of the way. Did you send those bible verses? If so thank you, they all reinforce what I have to say.

Matthew 12:39 - They were asking for a sign that Jesus was the messiah, and he spoke about the sign of Jonah then Jesus speaks of His death and resurrection! So really this verse is backing us up that people are raised from the dead. Also, up to this point in his ministry, Jesus has already raised the dead, healed the sick and driven out demons. So, its not that Jesus wont do these things, its that theyve already seen but wont believe...

Matthew 24:24 - lets look at the whole passage, v5 says people coming claiming they are Christ, we definately say we are not the Christ, v9-14 speaks of people leaving Christ, and love being lost, if u read v23 before u read v24 u will see it is speaking of people claiming they are the Christ and will perform false signs and wonders. So, since we are clinging to Christ, definately rejecting any idea that we are the Christ, and we love people then we can safely say that this verse does not have anything to do with us at all!

1 Corinthians 1:22 - Once again this speaking of people who want more and more signs to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Jews wanted more and more signs that Jesus was the Messiah. We dont need any more proof at all that Jesus is the Messiah. Our want for signs and wonders is so that people believe in the God who is powerful to heal and compassionate. In fact Paul even said in the very next chapter that "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power," So, once again this passage doesnt support the whole no miracles thing...

Thanks for the passages. I eagerly await your email!

Simon Mapleback said...

I was reminded of 1 Samuel where they were in the days where hearing from God was rare, even though today we hear from Him all the time, God doesn't want to hide Himself for long. So even if you are correct that people aren't raised from the dead today (which is incorrect, but just say it was true) it won't be long until it starts happening again!! God want's to show His glory.
Hallelujah!!

PS - good choice in Bible references too, how cool are they!

Anonymous said...

No email coming James, I prefer discussion and debate in an open forum. As far as miraculous healings go, much like wanting proof for people being raised from the dead, show me independently medically verified proof. Not of things that can be easily explained as being healed by natural or normal medical means, but serious afflictions instantly healed. Things like full-blown terminal cancers, severed spinal cords, disfigured limbs, cerebral palsy. There should be hundreds if not thousands of examples. Show me real proof, not some story from an evangelist in Africa. If you can't find it, just admit it. Don't put it back onto my perceived lack of faith. Prove it, that's all I've ever asked.

Simon Mapleback said...

Fair dinkum!! ;)

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

John 20:29-31

That above reference hasn't yet stopped - Jesus is still doing these 'miracles' today, you are not one of the blessed ones I'm guessing...(not judging just looking at the evidence :))

I'm praying for the full-filment of Matt 10:8 by the end of 2008 just to give you nothing more to argue with. Pray with me - will you at least do that?!

You want an open forum - we'll organise one, what nights are you free?? Talking about this in person will be much easier than all this typing and waiting for responses! We're waisting time arguing with you than being out there saving people from eternal punishment...

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

I am so glad that you believe that God can perform miracles - raise the dead, heal people, etc. I wonder why you believe that God can do this - do you have any proof? In fact, do you have any proof that God has ever done this? You may claim the Bible as your proof, the Bible also speaks of God using faithful disciples to do this work, however, there is no proof - apart from the Bible. What are your thoughts on this?

Were the Acts of the Apostles performed by the local Benny Hinns of the day? What do you think?

I am curious, still trying to understand your viewpoint.

Faith

Anonymous said...

Faith I believe God can do those things simply in the context that He is God, creator of the universe, so He should be more than capable of these things. I don't have proof that He did in the past, but rely on the bible as an accurate account of what Jesus did during his time on earth. Of course that could therefore be untrue, which then leads our discussion down a whole new path.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

I am really glad that you have such a strong faith in God and His power. I am also glad that you believe the Bible accounts of what Jesus did in the past. Do you also believe the Bible accounts of what the disciples did? Where do you stand as regards the book of Acts?

Faith

Anonymous said...

Wow raised from the dead by the end of the year, that sounds awesome Simon i so hope i can be there.

What is with people being scared of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God, should we be scared to trust the one who loves us so much?

i think we should be joyfull that these miricles are still happening today as the did 2000 years ago not trying to discredit them.

Hallelujah God is Amazing