I fell asleep yesterday afternoon and missed our '4oclock thing' and my brother wanted to hear reggie dabbs speak so I went to planetshakers church last night! I really enjoyed it! I loved it! They did a few things different to other churches Ive been to, heres a couple that stood out...
1) They had a time for declaring Jesus' name! (reminded me of old testament stuff...)
2) When welcoming the new people the people of the church stood up instead of the visitors!
A couple of other things they said was that they are rapidly growing. The youth pastor said that they had 56 converts at their last youth group. He went on to say that they teach all their people they dont need to change the world, just one life at a time! They have just started having two services on a sunday so they can fit everyone in and keep growing!
This got me thinking, what do these guys have that we, generally speaking the salvos and more specifically at greensy salvos, dont have?
Heres what I think: They are culturally relevant with their music (none of this brass band or 1980's music), they are evangelical (they actually want to see the world changed by people coming to know Jesus), everyone is in a small group/bible study, they are outwardly passionate in all they do, they are real (their faith is real), they rely on the Holy Spirit (dont just talk about it) and theres more.
We in the salvos are in the dark ages walking around with dinosaurs.
We are sooo far behind its not funny. Our churches are diminishing. Our pastors (very generally speaking) have no idea whats going on and if they do they are too gutless or dont have the right gifts to do something about it. (there are a few that are doing ok though...)
People love to bag these churches. Saying theyre all hype, not enough social justice, no community, bad theology. People that say these things are normally liberal minded thinkers and disagree with a church that is so full on for Jesus, or old people who think their way is best and are blind to the good things happening in these churches.
These churches have better communities than my church, they are more passionate and they rely on the Holy Spirit more. They reguarly see people healed of diseases, people speak in tongues and people prophesy.
I dont see this at my church. People in my church water down these gifts because they dont understand why they dont have them. 'The gift of healing is seen in emotional healing' yes i agree but if it was the gift of healing why arent people physically healed? Where is the Holy Spirit?
These churches have something that my church doesnt and im beginning to wonder if that is their surrender to God. Why are we so far behind? Why are thousands flocking to these other churches and we struggle for a hundred at my church?
Is the salvation army way too focussed on ourselves, and what we do for ourselves that we loose sight of what we're suppose to be doing? William Booth would be ashamed of the salvation army at my church. We look at ourselves way too much and not enough at the people who need Jesus. This is seen in the way we are so ir-relevant! (this point is proved by the fact most of our youth also go to a pentecostal type church to meet their needs)
I want to see revival at my church but what is it going to take for it to happen?
Do we bulldoze our church and start again? Do we wait for all the older people to die off then start again? Can these peoples minds be changed so that they try for this change? Will any one care enough to try? And will we ever get a pastor/officer who isnt blind to our mediocrity and irrelevancy that will have the guts to take a risk and do something?
Monday, September 04, 2006
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14 comments:
Hmmm... I think the same as Saz, i also think that this is a difficult point. I do think that we need to focus on the needs of others and the Salvo's, bu...but do we also need to focus on our own needs? (not being selfish, not being up myself or anything)
I dunno...
James your passion for Jesus and your passion to make a difference in the world is undeniable. Change must happen, but it happens slowly usually by one individual taking one step at a time. It is often hard to do it on your own without financial resources. Check out this website and see if it sparks ideas for you to be a change agent in the world.
http://www.youngaustralians.org/
as a youth leader in your church, shouldn't you believe in your church? if you don't like the church you're going to, why are you leading the youth in that church?
i have thought bit about what you said about planetshakers. penticostal churches are quite the 'fad' if i may use that, with young people these days. They have all the beautiful singers, the loud music and lights, and yes! that's fine! I used to go alot to a penticostal church. but sometimes i worry about whether THAT'S what creates the Holy Spirit atmosphere...because the music is so intense.
as a youth leader, i'm guessing you'd know that worship is not just about music and praise through singing. worship is EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO! cleaning your teeth you can worship God. And not everybody's 'ideal' worship comes through that kind of church community. there isn't a need for churches like the greensy salvo's to 'catch up' necessarily...because of this: there ARE people there who worship God through this kind of service, boring as you may see it...but for THEIR walk with God, it's what they need.
Yes, a church should provide for all age groups, but that's YOUR job as a past youth leader then isn't it? YOU! get the youth involved? have the youth ever run a sunday morning service?? using THEIR gifts and showing the rest of the church body what their praise and faith is all about?
james read it agreed with it all. other than the personal character stuff dont believe it is a hanging offence,but obviously you are frustrated.thinkingof you and sarah god bless.bruce p.
Im only going to say a couple of things now as I am currently writing another blog...
The first is im sorry about some of the generalizations that people have taken personally.I know i could have written it differently. Please forgive me as my passion got the better of me.
What i want to point out is that I am not having a go at the band at greensborough! All I said is that Planetshakers is different!Does planetshakers have a brass band? No, they dont!
Im trying to say that they become relevant to their target audience then do that well and they grow.
What works at Planetshakers wont work at Greensborough, what works at Greensborough wont work at 614, what works at 614 wont work elsewhere.
Whats in common though? They all are growing because they are relevant to their target audience.
I also want to point out that yes i was a leader at greensborough, yes i am not happy with the way things are. But I want to see Greensborough get better and change, however the leadership dont want my input anymore.
I cant believe people have gotten so upset about some questions. I will write more about this soon.
Thanks for commenting everyone, please keep it up!
Ok... Well, firstly i dont see why you - james are apologozing? You did NOTHING wrong, i thought that we lived in a country, a state, even just a community with freedom of speech!
Just a few weeks ago we spoke to a jug at the 4:08 meeting, we were told to voice our thoughts, and now, you ahve so they tell you that your input is no longer wanted! WHAT THE? that is WAY to controversial (right word??)
Also, the anonymous comment, i think that they have made a valid point in saying you should believe in your church, but i also think that your entry did NOT say you didnt believe in our church, just that you wanted to make it better!
In accoubnting we have to compare industry averages! Comparisons is what tells us how well we are doing, it's what allows us to check if we could be off track maybe? I dunno, i see the planet shakers church as a really FUN, ENJOYABLE, AWES church, and i love greensy, i really do, being at that church has helped me, BUT... i do agree that maybe??? (not definately) but maybe we do need to update, to do more? I'm not sure what, but i am sure that james leaving our church is NOT a solution, it will only create more problems, thats the way i see it!
I know that us youth are'nt THAT important, but should we? at all? be given a choice? I mean, james has NEVER said anything bad about greensy EVER! He was a great leader, he n sarah
(not saying mel n liam didnt! Coz i luv them, just thought that i would mention that! Even though i hate that james is gone, n saz maybe, i do luv mel n Liam!)
Made youth group and church, and other meetings Much more fun!
Well, i am guessing that maybe, maybe i am placing too much focus on two people, BUT those two people have made such an impact on my life, they were ALWAYS there for me, from the day i set foot in greensy salvo's LITERALLY!
I still see this as a mistake, and now, i fear it is ireversal (spelling), i think that this decision was made in haste, not clear minds and is WAY TO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow that was long! Anys, Luv ya James, Luv ya Saz! ALways and forever
Luv talz
xoxo
hey James, just wanted to let u kno that we're 100% behind u. u & sarah r da best youth leaders ive eva known & with u not there the church & especially the youth is going 2 suffer. You've been working as the youth intern @ greensy 4 the past 3 years & like Sarah said does that mean anything? well im sure that i'll be speaking 4 all the other youth groupers when i say YES!! You have been there 4 all of us whenever we've needed sum1 2 talk 2 & you've definetly brought alot of us closer 2 God in the time that you've been here. I think it's very unfortunate & utterly ridiculous that you've been sacked over something as simple as giving your opinion. If people are prepared 2 4get all ur good work u've done 4 the corps over 1 blog, then that's their problem not yours. Your better than that and u can always count on my support. You've done absoulutly nothing wrong. take care & God bless luv Georgia
hey James
I agree with Georgia, honestly you and sarah were great leaders our youth group and you guys made our youth group so much better, I really do think that it's so stupid to sack you just because you gave you're opinion, i'm dissapointed in the people resposible for sacking you. But i think we should concentrate on the future. When i read other peoples blogs some of them seem a bit unrealistic but i think you're blogs just tells it how it is and thats great. Your a great person so make sure you don't let negetive experiences like this change who you are.
hey james, i dont understand y they told u 2 leave
hey james,
i think that a lot of people need to look at both sides of the story before they can truly make judgement. i have chosen to stay on a neutral side. i was extremely hurt when i found out that u were no longer a youth leader, and then i read ur blog. and i will admit to being one of those people that were hurt by it.
i agree with some of the stuff that you said in ur blog, but i think that some of it didn't need to be said, not because i'm scared of it, but because some views were obviously biased. greensborough salvos is not the biggest, grandest, or best church in the world but there is so much going on, so much is being done, by the youth and the older people of the church alike, to expand our church into the community.
as youth we like to think that older people wouldn't have any idea of what it's like to be a christian these days. but it's not true. oneday we're all going to be old, if it's God's will, does that mean that we will no longer know wat it's like to be a 'true' christian?
you highlighted a lot of negative things in ur blog, but what about the good? if some1 who has never been to our church and read that blog they would think so badly of us. they would think that God is not with us or that we truly lack the Holy Spirit.
but i see God working everywhere in our church. what of the youth group? the kidz biz? little biz? 4.00 meeting? bible study? junior youth group? when we did youth alpha? the youth mission training? the holiness meeting, the work our bands do? the work that the old, and i mean old!, people still do in the community? the worship band? do not people in the brass band also play guitar etc. in the worship band? and so much more.
i don't know what to say, but i do know that we all need to get on the same page, we have to stop playing the who's right and who's wrong game and focus on the fact that we're all right and wrong! i believe that taking sides is only going to weaken us. if we really care about our church and community then we will get thru this together!
what has been said has been said, but that doesn't mean that we can't put this behind us and grow stronger from it. we all need to forget our pride, if only for a day.
when people read this i have no doubt that they will take it the wrong way, that's why i don't like blogs, but plz understand that i believe that god wants to be in this situaion, but while we're all so set in our ways, i don't think we're letting him in.
i pray that this will all work out and that we can become the loving, united and strong group that we once were. because what we are becoming now is just sad and depressing.
thanks for commenting alana. I appreciate that you have been honest.
The problem with the blog is that i blurted out a whole bunch of things to get them off my chest. frusturation and passion fueled this bad habit i have of saying things without thinking!
The other thing i wanted to say is im not trying to make 'sides'.i dont know why people have been saying im trying to split the corps etc and that really hurts me.i dont even know what the 2 sides r?the ones who want to see greensborough grow and the ones who dont?im sure we all want to see greensborough!please dont think im trying to make sides.
The point of my blog wasnt to degrade greensborough but to say 'what do we need to do for revival?' i will never be 100% happy with the way things are because i always want to be getting better.
I love greensborough, and i need to make it clear i wasnt trying to bag greensborough...i too see God doing great things as well!Im not saying He's not, but Im asking the question'what do we need to do to get better?'
anyway, we'll talk more! Thanks for ur comment, i really am sorry for hurting u and the others who have been hurt, and i look forward to discussing my blog with you and making ammends. In the mean time i ask for ur forgiveness!
thanks!
This blog was obviously written as an encouragement, not a condemnation. As a challenge, not a put down. By some of the responses I have read, It reminds me of when the prophets in the old testament used to go and share with the cities what God had told them. Isn't it funny how we can look at that and think 'wow, how can they ignore God's servant like that?' and then find outselves in that very same situation. Ignoring a messenger of our King.
I understand that Churches in the Western world are struggling at the moment. But lets not focus on the negative, but rather the positive. Or perhaps turn the negative into the positives. There was a comment published by someone who wished to remain nameless stating that music is not the only aspect of Worship and that is very true - I totally agree. However the question needs to be asked 'Why does it work for Planetshakers and Hillsong?' God has anointed their ministries there. His blessing is with those churches. I would agree that some Corps within the Salvation Army are lacking 'newer' music, But would also like to suggest that some of the newer stuff does not have the great challenge or depth as some of the old songbook songs. Some of my most intimate moments with God has been when I have been worshipping God through songbook songs. However, someone new walking into a church listening to all the 'thee's, thou's, hasts and arts' would probably freak out completely and in my experience this has happened. Any church needs to be missional and we need to meet the needs of our communities and areas of responsibilities. Because if we fail to do that, then we infact fail God. And that is something I dont wanna do.
So now what happens? A young man of God is relieved of any leadership duties.. A corps is on the brink of breakdown, relationships are burnt, trust is broken and people are hurting. I struggle to see how God has been glorified through any of this. Simply because people have taken it personally and have not been constructive in their respone to the mighty challenge James has given. Might I ask what people responses would have been if Jesus had said everything that James has said?... I somehow don't think that he would be relieved of His duty as Saviour. Respect is such a big thing these days and it seems to be lacking everywhere, inside and outside the church. There needs to be an encouragement from younger people to old and for older people to young. The relationships between generations need to be strong and built on the Solid Rock - Christ Jesus.
Leaders need to be empowered, none of this backstabbing stuff, it is too detrimental to the church. Issues need to be resolved before the going down of the sun, is that not how we are directed by Scripture? Consultations need to happen and if someone says something you don't like, understand or whatever... Go and talk to them. Be slow to anger.
I know that God is bigger than any of this stuff that has happened and that He is in total control. I'd hate to see the church divide over something like this. Its said that 'Together everyone achieves more' So why dont we work together to reach the common goal...TO worship in one Spirit and one Truth, to seek to do the will of God and to bring Him glory. And most importantly to work together to seek and save lost souls - For that is what we were raised to do - Not to bicker amongst ourselves. 'Blessed are those who are persecuted' May God continue to work in His Army and continue to guide us forward. Hallelujah
Hi James,
Well, I've chatted to you about this blog, but I want to go on record in the PUBLIC arena, as clearly that's quite important at this point in time.
Many people (particularly in Melbourne Central) know that I left The Salvation Army, the church and organization I truly honestly love, due to some personal issues I had with particular officers and staff employed by the Army (both Christian and non-Christian). So as someone now "on the outside" I want to say that James has raised some valid and IMPORTANT points, which seem to have been brushed over by those quick to condemn the questionings of one of its servants. It is VITAL if The Salvation Army is to continue for years to come, that it allow questioning, that the hard issues are bought to life... issues such as church growth, and an obsession with "tradition" (which lets face it is not the "tradition" the Booth's envisaged). I am completely not anti-band... I enjoy the odd Staff Band concert, and lament the loss of timbrel brigades (as all my non-christian friends ask if I play timbrel!) I think that bands and timbrels make us unique to other churches...a rare thing in the time of Hillsong/Planetshakers worship. But that form of worship is not relevant to every corps....and it should not be the focus of a corps, but a way in which to bring people into a time of worship and praise towards God. I think that a lot of young people, after my generation, have really missed out on some of the unique gifts The "band/timbrel" tradition gave us - we are seeing less and less of our young people learning instruments, and it's becoming harder and harder to find salvo students enrolling in the VCA and other places... which is a loss, as we are known worldwide for our musicianship... and should not shy away from that.
But as I did also mention earlier, that is not relevant in every corps... it's certainly not relevant to a corps ministering to street kids, who's "voice" is found in "street music" (rap/beatbox/etc). But in a place like greensy...perhaps it is... if it's used as a tool to reach out to the community, which James has already mentioned it is.
But the real problem here is not James' view on Planetshakers, it's that he dared to question the status quo...something the Booth's not only admired...they encouraged. What is the status quo of the church? How can we move with the times? How can we get our people in the streets saving souls? The great man, William Booth once said "Go for souls, and go for the worst"... that's what we are called to do...and THAT is what James was questioning...where are the souls we're going after? Where are the people we are called to serve? How do we get more than just bums on seats, but passionate, fired up, sold-out-for-God DISCIPLED Christians in our church...with numbers growing not dwindling...THAT'S what we're seeing in Pentecostal churches... and THAT is what The Salvation Army must answer for...
Having said all of that, I might remind people, that those churches we often hold up in esteem come packaged with their own issues, that their people should question, and work through together...
I pray one day I might return to the Army I hold so deeply in my heart...the tradition and theology I love so much... but I simply cannot subscribe to serving an army unwilling to allow for questions of itself, it's ministers and it's staff. I pray the next generation of Officers may answer the call of this generation and those to come after us, I take heart that we're already seeing some great Candidates, and officers coming out of Training College (and again this was a generalization, there are some GREAT officers Internationally who already are working towards building a better and more passionate Army)
My prayers are with you James...and with the countless others who have been misunderstood and then "pushed" to the side.
Love Sare x
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