Following yesterdays post WJE asked me when I was going to come back to mainstream Christianity. (Because I'm so out there!) I then went on to say how I thought mainstream Christianity is mediocre, apathetic and boring. So, of course people want to know why I think these things. This is what I think, feel free to disagree!
Mediocre
| 1. | of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate. |
| 2. | rather poor or inferior. |
I use to fit right in with mediocre Christianity. It was nothing that different from how other people lived their lives. I had a belief and i was a good person. I prayed, I read my Bible, I did all the things I was suppose to do. I had a mainstream Christian life. Nothing 'extreme.'
But then I got filled with the Holy Spirit. How did it happen? I asked God to fill me with the Holy Spirit. And He did. Physically my hand shook for 4 hours and we couldn't stop it. But that wasn't the big thing, my heart changed. My attitudes changed. Not only that but my faith increased. And from this moment on I stepped out of mediocrity. I still had mediocre times in my life, but I had tasted something sweeter than what I had ever had before.
That has just grown and grown since then. These days I see people healed regularly. I see people get saved regularly. Visions, prophecy and words of knowledge are common place now. So, when I look back to how life used to be and compare it with now, everything else seems mediocre, its ordinary.
Apathetic
| 1. | having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior. |
| 2. | not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: |
Now heres a word that I use to describe the mainstream Christian church. Little to no emotion! Not really interested or concerned. Why do I think that? I think that because much of mainstream Christianity doesn't care. Mainstream Christianity is about alot of good things, good morals, good attitudes, doing good things etc. But I see no emotion from mainstream Christians for the millions of people going to hell. They just don't seem to be all that concerned.
I read the Bible and see a God who has compassion on people, who heals the sick, casts out demons, provides, protects and speaks. I see a God who changes lives in a blink of an eye, not just to show people His party tricks, but because He loves them. Yet mainstream Christianity looks at these things and say they are nice, but then, doesn't expect the same today.
What am I advocating for? I'm advocating for a faith that is not just a head thing, something I learned from being at uni, or a belief system I grew up with. Its not just a warm feeling that I am saved. Its not just something that is good, and good to other people.
Im advocating for a fiery hot faith of which I'll blog on that later...
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25 comments:
Yeah, preach it Jamsie!!
The difference here seems to be the Holy Spirit - the apathetic 'church' are those just going through the motions, but those with the POWER like what you're talking about James, have all been baptised with the Holy Spirit - strange that!!
WJE - it sounds like your mainstream christianity is very apathetic from what I'm reading. Did you miss out on the baptism?
You said in the last post 'Dare I say I have been around a while and have seen and heard these guys and seen the damage they do' if you are in touch with todays world, it sounds like your old-style 'catholic' based apathy is doing the damage, pushing away almost 100% of the next generation - there is the damage!! This new generation is not going to be content with just watching the world go by, the Spirit is convicting us to change the world! In doing so, what God commands - He enables, maybe signs and wonders are back?!?
If God came to you today in the form of a burning bush, would you turn away and say 'that can't be God because He's done that one before'?!
I know my God is the same today as yesterday. What He did yesterday, he can do again today. Also, if you discredit one thing Jesus said, you discredit it all & therefore our salvation is false - is that where you are heading with this WJE???? Aren't you on TSA's training staff - that is a problem!
[After all this pointless discussion, a 'miracle' is something that occurs outside the 'natural' law that we live by, which my God put into place anyway, so if He want's to, He can break His 'natural' law whenever He want's to, whether He's done it before, or wants to do a new thing.]
These days I see people healed regularly. I see people get saved regularly. Visions, prophecy and words of knowledge are common place now.
Sounds great - the corps you attend must be growing at a rapid rate.What corps do they attend and who are these people getting healed? A hand shaking for four hours doesn't prove it was the Holy Spirit. Seen the same in Hinduism. GH
It seems to me that is is essential to have someone like WJE on the training college staff in order to try and bring some sound biblical training into the place. Otherwise we are going to have some very mixed up individuals leaving there the next few years and being unleashed on our corps.
just a point of clarification, the stephen who blogged is not cpt stephen court...
Welcome to Stephen who has joined the discussion. “Power” seems to be your take on things. Are you saying the world is effectively broken into a series of divisions: divine –demonic – soul-flesh, interior-exterior, to name a few. If so then an excuse always exists if God’s power apparently fails or is not seen to be present. Hence both yours and James condemnation of mainstream/classic Christianity and those who are part of it. Are you advocating a ‘power’ theology? Ie divine power can be demonstrated not only in the life of Christ but also in the life of the believer. If so, what suffers is the self-giving of Jesus Christ on the cross, the very abdication of omnipotence, in the wider interests of meeting creation in love, which necessarily includes risking rejection, and, ultimately death. Further, what most fail to note is Jesus seldom healed friends, nor did he locate his healing ministry in a community of faith, in order to build up his congregation; it was more usually offered to those who were explicitly or implicitly excluded from such gatherings. Christian tradition asserts that Christ is the embodiment of God’s love, and not primarily his brute power or empowering capability. At the cross, there are no miracles, for all the signs and wonders that went before are focused on the cross – love risking knowing and relationship, and thus even rejection – the way into God.
Insistence on the immanence of God as you guys are advocating becomes hard to sustain because it is an over-realized eschatology. What happens next is those who depend on s,w,m phenomena depend on an ever increasing new phenomena to keep participants within their framework. Consequently new, novel, and exciting agents are always needed to participants interested and engaged, to perpetuate the myth that this kind of revivalism is fresh and relevant. For all the claims being made it should be remembered that the majority of people are drawn by God to himself through close, lasting relationships, not by miracles or awesome rhetoric. As mentioned earlier this stuff is primarily confined to the western middle classes. Why does God heal them while millions live in poverty, famine, suffering and injustice? Is it possible to believe that God is doing a few nice, handy miracles for the chosen few, but nothing in response to the prayers of those in such need? The problem with us westerners is too many of us prayer etc has become wish-fullment, a child’s fantasy of a fix-it God who can do anything.
As study of Matthew’s gospel shows Prophets are not appropriate community leaders in Matthew's Gospel. There are prophets who cry out 'Lord, Lord' and who perform signs and wonders in Jesus name but they are described as false prophets and as wolves in sheep's clothing (7.15-20). Disciples are certainly given the task 'to cast out unclean spirits, to heal and even to raise the dead (10.1,8) in the context of Jesus own mission to Israel, but unlike Luke they do not return declaring that 'even the demons are subject to us' nor does Matthew allow that an exorcist who does not follow Jesus be allowed to cast out demons in his name as does Mark (9.38-40) and Luke (9.49-50). In fact the disciples in Matthew, like Mark, are unable to cast out a demon (17.16, 19) but it is not because they have not prayed appropriately rather they are charged with 'little faith'.
Matthew's gospel is concerned to point out that while inspired prophecy is acknowledged (10.41) false prophets are a serious problem (7.15-27). Similarly miracle workers are downplayed as miracles are the work of Jesus alone as a proof of his own divinity and Jesus followers follow him by keeping his teaching and passing it on rather than repeating his miracles. The deeds which are commended are not miraculous ones but feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the poor etc.
Matthew's model Christian leader is not a disciple or a prophet but is Jesus alone. The proclamation of this unparalleled leader then depends on a scribe who 'has been trained for the kingdom of heaven' and who 'brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old'(13.52). So disciples are to be recognised by their fruit: the teaching of Jesus words which in Matthew's Gospel are gathered together as 'the Sermon on the Mount' in chapters 5-7 and which they are commissioned to pass on along with baptising people (28.20).
This brings us to the point about theology and ethics. It seems strange that you guys claim to have been ‘baptised by the Spirit’ and have been made ‘holy’. Yet the attitudes that come across is one of condemnation and an arrogant boastfulness that says we are better than everyone else. When challenged you resort to name calling and questioning whether the challenger is even, dare I say, saved. Strange how that happens. While we might commend you for you zeal it seems to be at times a zeal without knowledge. Look forward to the day when you arrive at the Training College. WJE
The thing that worries me the most on these sites is all the criticism that is thrown about about each other. Surely this is not God glorifying. God has given each of us DIFFERENT gifts and some of those gifts require some people to qietly do things that have a big impact on other people's lives and bring them to know the Saviour. It is not about who can shout the loudest,it is about lives lived to honour and glorify God. It is not for any one of us to judge whether another has been filled with the Holy Spirit or not. I know many Spirit Filled people who do great things for God and add people to His Kingdom but I wonder if they would be recognised purely on the basis that they haven't been seen to go through the experiences that you are talking about. I trust that you will find it in your heart to recognise this fact and not be quite so critical by calling people apathetic and mediocre when so many are not. I believe that the Spirit is at work in TSA at this moment and that there is a deepening desire and response to the Spirit's movement in our midst but not always in the manner that you describe. I have sat with people in meetings who have been emotional because the Holy spirit has spoken to them and I have taken the time to pray with them and lead them into that deeper experience. I knelt and prayed with someone at the Holiness Table only a few weeks ago and prayed with them as they sought to know the Spirits power in their lives. People are hearing the Spirit and responding without fanfare - sometimes without even an invitation given for people to come forward etc. Please, please, let us allow the Spirit to do His work in His way and not be critical if things aren't done the way WE think they should be. (Criticism is also sinful). God bless you.
I’m going to tackle you here WJE because I completely disagree with you. To everyone reading this, just because he uses big words and makes things sound complicated doesn’t mean he is right. The gospel is simple.
Power Theology – Yes we are. But your point about it taking away from Jesus death and resurrection is ridiculous! In The Salvation Army we believe that we need to preach the word and demonstrate it as you say by helping people. No one is worried about the fact that we see that you need to help people socially, that’s why we have huge social services.
If we follow your theology against ‘power’ stuff then it falls because then all we are doing is preaching without demonstrating, we’re speaking it without doing it! And I know you don’t believe that because further down your response it says we need to live it out a bit.
You see one way we can help people is by using spiritual gifts, having faith and asking God to help.
So by what you have said you are picking and choosing when its ok to preach versus when its ok to preach and do. It’s very strange WJE.
Whenever Jesus healed in the NT it was out of love. If you read through the gospels you will see that ‘Jesus had compassion’ or Jesus saw a need and fixed it. So, when you say that by God using His power for miracles He is taking away from the cross it sounds silly to me because Jesus was all about grace, giving when we don’t deserve. Its grace to heal, cleanse, die and rise again.
As for healing not in the church you run into problems with James 5:14-16, “Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.” Here it is commanded that we pray for those who are sick. Once again sounds like your mins is made up before you search the scripture…
Then you start to talk about how “Love risking knowing and relationship, and thus even rejection – the way into God.” Ok, now where have I ever said all we need to do is miracles? I never say that sort of thing. Where have I ever denied that we need relationship?
As for over realised eschatology… Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s wrong. I don’t think its hard to believe that when I pray “Your kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven” that God does it. That’s what He told us to pray. As for wanting more and more and wanting new sensations, I don’t think that’s that bad. It’s bad when the sign becomes what we are chasing but we are not. As we are in relationship with God we want more and more of His goodness.
Now here is a couple of terrible statements that show a complete lack of knowledge on your part for what is actually happening around the world, “For all the claims being made it should be remembered that the majority of people are drawn by God to himself through close, lasting relationships, not by miracles or awesome rhetoric.
“As mentioned earlier this stuff is primarily confined to the western middle classes. Why does God heal them while millions live in poverty, famine, suffering and injustice? Is it possible to believe that God is doing a few nice, handy miracles for the chosen few, but nothing in response to the prayers of those in such need? The problem with us westerners is too many of us prayer etc has become wish-fullment, a child’s fantasy of a fix-it God who can do anything.”
Wow! Big claims that you can not back up. I lived overseas in Bangladesh and Barbados for 7 years. And I can tell you that heaps of people convert because of miracles, I can tell you that they see HEAPS more healing stuff, signs and wonders than what we do. And when we read books on the house church, especially in China and India signs and wonders are common place. And let me remind you that the house church movement is the fastest growing movement. Healing is not confined to middle class Westerners!
As for your critical view of prayer… This shows a complete lack of theology on God the Father. As you know the Father in Jesus time would give out His inheritance to His sons. Jesus told us to pray to our Father, the one who gives to us.
Westerners understand that God wants to give. And so they ask in faith and God gives. Yeah, they can take it too far, but is asking God to heal the sick going too far for a loving Father? If I asked my dad to get me some panadol to fix my head ache is he going too far if he does? I don’t think so. Here’s another problem with your theology WJE, is that you are taking the signs and wonders theology to its extreme which is not what we are talking about!
As for why don’t their prayers go answered? Well, they do get answered and in my experience they have. They all testify to how God provides! As for those in hunger, I believe that is the mission God has given Christians to do. To go and feed the poor. At the same time there are stories of how God provides food. So, here your theology falls down WJE because you are saying God won’t always provide… Very interesting. (and when scripture speaks about us not receiving from God its often to do with a lack of faith)
I’m not going to get into the Matthew stuff because I’ve written too much already…
But as for our boastfulness, we don’t boast about our selves. We boast about God and what He is doing. So, it is only natural that if we have a different relationship to God than you, you miss out on some of the stuff we are talking about. And that goes both ways for you and for us… But please don’t get us wrong, we are simply saying that the way we are living is seeing God do great things and we want that for everyone. We think it’s the best so we want others who don’t have it to have it…
As for zeal without knowledge… That is so debateable. We just have different ideas and different theology, but to say our knowledge is lacking is ridiculous. It would be like me saying you have knowledge but no fruit to show for it…
I just hope and pray that there will continue to be officers like WJE at the training college who will stand up to the bullying tactics that are so evident from the likes of you James, who just can't stand the thought of being wrong in their theology. However I fear that sound biblical training will gradually go out the window under the present training principal, who appears to be one of the drivers of the type of madness on display in many of these blogs.
One of the first blogs I ever read of yours was one where you described being out surfing, praying for bigger waves, and you believe God said "OK James, here they are". I challenged you on that at that time, on the basis of what sort of God says yes to your request for improved surfing conditions, yet says no to the pleadings of truly needy people in situations of famine, abuse and the like. That appears to be the God you honestly believe in, however that God in one I would not wish to have any part of. You and your like-minded friends live in a world of ignorance to the truth James, but you are so blinded by what you want to be true that you cannot see reality.
So what next James, do you start campaigning your guru for the removal of WJE and anyone else who disagrees with you from the training college staff? And by the way, I don't know WJE, I've never met him. But I respect his knowledge of the bible just from what I have read here.
James my dear, dear friend sounds to me you have quite a fan base. I wish you good luck with this debate but something tells me it is going to go nowhere fast. Some people love there comfort zones and believing God works wonders is unimaginable. I believe Mainstream Christianity is boring that goes nowhere fast. I once was part of the Salvos and i can tell you my family goes way back to the good old days of William Booth himself as i have told you already. For many years i fell away because it was too mainstream as we are putting it aka boring and formal no going after God learning who he is and establishing a real lasting relationship with our father in heaven. It seems if we do love god and dare show it and go after him and do as he has commanded us to do that we must be possessed by demons or something just for believing in God and his son who died for us. I think there is something about that in Matthew and the other Gospels lol.
I can tell you at a young age i was keen to know god, to be his friend and to love the father but there was no opportunity only readings of what he was in the bible nothing more no substance, who was he errrr a carpenter, what dose he say hmmmm he loves you and everyone else be a good little boy, what did he do tricky one healed people. Ok i knew this stuff Who was he really, to me in this day of age. I wanted to know him personally. They preached he was alive cool so how do we talk, commune with him. So Jesus in this sense was just a story book character who did a bunch of stuff died and rose again and lived happily ever after The End. Not good enough Boring. Jesus now i am afraid was dead to me and i to him which is a sad fact. He's real but does not act even today??? Get real. I never knew who he was so i carried on in life beleaving something is out there but not knowing what just that his name was Jesus who was a great man. I wanted to know him experience him but never could all attempts wasn't good enough, so it was hopeless. It wasn't till he made himself known to me one day that i had any realization of who he was. I thank him for doing that if he hadn't i would have thought you were an idiot James and never stayed in touch. It was you who showed me and from there the passion for him grew and then he came and said hey Greg yea I'm real and i hear ya, what did you want to know? If only someone back in the day showed me a God who really does care and loves us and listen, one who is real and is still around even to this day. I would never have left the family of the Salvation Army and at times only recently i wish i hadn't. Today me and the Salvos there is a huge rift i don't know them anymore. But i am grateful i know Jesus, thank The Lord. I could have been another William Booth the way i am going these days lol. But i suppose even he is to out there for WJE. Reinhard Bonke now he's good sort of fellow in this day in age Sort of what WB was i guess. But i am glad i know God now i have learned so much FORM JESUS HIMSELF then i did from anyone else. It is because he is real to me now that i am finally on the path he intended. I have given an example God still dose miracles in what i have written that he came to me, spoke to my heart and i heard / received his message but no that would be too far fetched or out there for WJE. Jesus though his Holy Spirit actually does things today no can't be not Jesus doesn't happen. I have seen many miracles i like to call them the Lord does to this day and i am grateful to him and i want to see more to BRING ALL THE GLORY TO GOD HIMSELF ! ! ! Praise Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
This all reminds me of something Isaiah said once to his people,
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused;make their ears dull and close their eyes.Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
I just pray God opens himself up to everyone as he has for me. God loves you WJE just pray and listen to what God has to say not what we have to say. God Bless you anyway, i don't mean to attack anyone just thought i would share my story.
Oh and James i have more info i must share with you why my family has no strong ties to the Salvation Army and that it was luck any of us remained with them. There is also opposition to me ever becoming an officer and i think my dad was going to become one but certain individuals sabotaged his chances because of there judgmental attitudes. I think i will inc this article of mine as a blog to get it going again lol. Talk soon James God Bless.
anon, sorry you feel so bullied... this is what happens when people have disagreements about things, we disagree and point out the things that we dont like with the other point of view. this is a blog and this is where we are choosing to disagree...
im sure wje wont find my criticisms bullying. so i await his response...
I have heard stories over the years of the early days of TSA in Australia when drunks came and knelt at the drum or the penitent form then stood up completley saved and completely sober. WJE, are these stories true, or just propaganda? Is it true that God can heal people by our prayers? If God doesn't answer our prayers, why do we bother to pray? If He does answer our prayers, which ones should we pray - I mean, is it OK for us to ask God to make people well or is this a wicked thing to do? If you are in the training college, maybe you can shed some light on what we can ask God for and what is taboo.
confused.
Power - yes!
Was that all you could critique me for WJE? I'm a bit dissapointed. Anything else you could rip me apart with, preferably not using your big words - they really bore me, I'm used to connecting to the world today, we use a language that everyone on the street connects to.
How from me saying 'POWER' - you derive such a huge conclusion that I say "the world is effectively broken into a series of divisions: divine –demonic – soul-flesh, interior-exterior, to name a few" You really read into things too much, either that or you just want to show off your superior knowledge!
Thank you for the welcome.
Wow, I'm out of it for a few days and look how much you miss!
WJE - can I ask what your Spiritual gifts are? (One sentence will be sufficient.)
I've noticed you've used your overseas experience quite a lot as if it makes your experiences more valid than James' and others commenting. I'm sure many of these commenting here have served overseas also.
Personally I've seen some amazing things God has done in other continents also - like healings in Ethiopia, demon kicking in Rwanda, a powerful prophecy on the street corner of the Redlight district in Amsterdam... actually even here in Melbourne just between James and myself, we have seen dozens of healings, so can we get off this signs and wonders stuff - God still does it today - who cares if some readers believe using big terms that some of Jesus commandments only were aimed at a specific few for a set time... it's happening, we're not focussing on it, we only are doing what Jesus wants us to do today and just being obedient and serving Him, but we're seeing these things happen all the same.
If you're missing out on it, fine, good for you, but why waste all this time arguing about trivial things that you have or have not experienced that IS seen in the Bible anyway.
This is getting really pointless - where did we start anyway?! I just want to have faith like a child...
I think I'm going to stop reading your blog James. Nothing against the blog itself. You have the right to express your opinions...if people don't like it, don't read it. What I really don't like is how attacking some of the comments are. If the writers of such comments don't believe they are being attacking, I think a self-examination of their motives and heart is required. What is there to gain by such bickering? All I know is that it is not good for my faith to read these comments. So I'll stop.
James, Simon, Stephen, Greg and whoever else agrees with you - if there really are miraculous healings taking place and people being raised from the dead in this day and age, where is the proof? I know we've gone back and forwards on this for months James, yet you still cannot provide any real evidence, just testimonies. Lets even put aside the raising from the dead for now, how about we just look at proof of healing. But how about we look for evidence of healings from serious afflictions, not things that can be easily explained via medical or natural means.
How about we look at three categories for now - cerebral palsy, quadraplegia and serious limb deformities. Surely with at least hundreds of thousands of people in the western world suffering from these, and with no doubt thousands of these being prayed for on many occasions for healing, there must be many medically verifiable cases of people being healed from these. I will stick with western society for now, due to the ease with which properly verifiable evidence should be available. Can you guys provide any evidence of healings that fit these criteria? Or does your god only heal the little things? It's easy to make big claims, but it's an entirely different matter backing up those claims.
ok, i think i know some who got healed of cerebral palsy and quadraplegia... Im emailing them to find out details.
As for serious limb deformities im not sure but give me a few days... i do know a guy who prayed over a broken leg and it got healed. Apparently they could even see the bone... and that was in south australia while they were playing basketball...
Teaching and discernment. WJE
Simon, If it help in answer your question re spiritual gifts - it is 'teaching and discernment'. To those who might be wondering who I am: I am Major Wayne Ennis, I am in my 42yr as an officer and have served as a Corps Officer for 23 yrs,chaplain work and have been in in education and training work as a teacher/ trainer, Training Principal and am currently the Education Officer at the Training College. I do have formal biblical and theological qualifications as well long years of teaching both.
Im interested WJE in two things... What did you think of my argument against yours?
And secondly with your gift of discernment, can you share some stories of deliverance with us? I love hearing how people have been set free! Thanks! :)
WJE, with all your knowledge and education and experience, I would really be interested to know the answers to the questions I asked about the drunks and the Salvation Army. Were these old Salvos pulling our legs with these stories?
Confused.
James, Simon and others if you must have definitions then 'teaching' is the gift that enables a person to instruct others in the meaning and moral implications of the Christian faith and enable people to grow in maturity in Christ. Discernment-what is of the Spirit is the gift whereby a person is able to test the spirits and prophecy as to whether it is of God or not. Also test the prophets as to whether they are speaking the truth or not. Often these two gifts go together. Which means I general know when falsehood is afoot. Whether i like it or not people say I have them, but I tend not to push the fact to the forefront. Have had some pastoral experiences in regards to the spiritual world and if we must use the term deliverance. Oh by the way I do believe in miracles, just in case you think I don't. I note in you reply you stayed away from the Matthew material. The Power Theology stuff comes from Wimber and is basically a theology of glory-success, power, health and wealth, rather than a theology of the cross - weakness and suffering. To those who feel that the cut and thrust of debate is a no, no, well Jude reminds us that we are to 'contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints". This is part of how people learn. The good old days of the Army saw people converted and transformed as the are today - all a consequence of hearing and responding to the gospel of the redemption. It goes the same for all, it is "the gospel that is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith" or so my friend paul says. Trouble is people tend to prefer the Power rather than the foolishness of the cross. WJE
Wow, that's a lot of experince Major Wayne Ennis of 42 years! Jesus must be very proud of your deeds, you must have a very comfortable throne awaiting you. Blessings.
Thanks Wayne,
I also have discernment as my primary gifting, and it has come in handy quite a bit. It's a great gift to have. It goes so well with many of my gifts also, but mine are all in the supernatural, maybe that's why I seem to be more focussed around it.
I don't need explanations on the giftings, I've had a fair bit of involvment with giftings myself, but thanks for the definition anyway.
So what just happened, you believe in miracles now, so what have we been discussing all this time.
What do you mean by "Have had some pastoral experiences in regards to the spiritual world and if we must use the term deliverance", you don't like the term deliverance? What sort of pastoral experience, sounds a bit nicer than some of the experiences I've had!
Wouldn't you say though that most of the 'power' does come from the cross though, much of the 'deliverance' stuff is based on it.
WJE, I think i am beginning to see where you are coming from... Correct me if im wrong, is your position somewhere along these lines...
The cross, Jesus death and resurrection are the ultimate preaching points.
Suffering, self denial, persecution is what is promised for a follower of God. (the discourse following the command to heal, raise, cleanse etc in matthew 10)
Signs and wonders happened to declare who Jesus was. They still happen.
But when people start focusing on them now there is a danger of going too far down the 'power' theology that we forget, or place not enough emphasis on the harder things like the cross and hard times? Which ultimately show our true repentance and submission to Christ where signs and wonders, which can be done by false prophets should not be seen as the mark of validity or as a preaching point to get people saved.
the way to salvation is not through temporal blessing (like a miracle) but through the cross of Jesus and His resurrection...
How close was that?
I agree with the statements above, especially about the cross being what to preach. But i also think that the book of Acts shows us that after the cross is preached God confirms it through signs and wonders...
I do see that there seems to be some stuff that doesnt quite line up like how Jesus does promise hard times, persecution etc yet He still does heal. Again, this can be shown in Acts/Pauls life. Times when he who was preaching the cross was beaten within an inch of his life, and other times when he was freed miraculously by angels, and other acts of God...
If we build too much theology on the power side we can miss the suffering side that actually enables the power side. It took Jesus to suffer for the ultimate power of the resurrection to take place. So as followers of God we need to remember that suffering is the way of following God, yet He does show His power at different times... If we focus too much on the power we forget the suffering which enabled it...
To the first part yes.
To the second:
The issue around s,w,m and divine power is that God’s omnipotence becomes a framework that is ultimately imposed on society, which will be required to submit to the new powers. At issue is also the nature of God’s power. The framework of Power Theology is it tends to distort theology and the gospel and how it might be controlled and enacted. The primary being of God is love, not power: all powers are subordinate to his nature, which is love. God approaches his creation in love, risking compromise, rejection and even defeat. The life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ demonstrates the power of God. If you like we can say that the ‘sign’ is the cross, the ‘wonder’ is God’s grace as seen in the death of Jesus, the ‘miracle’ is salvation by faith. The idea that s,w,m are said to be irresistible evidence of God’s being or that the s,w,m is the principle indicator of God’s existence is a corrupt view of power. Christianity does not centre itself on a God of knock-down power, but on a creative servant God of invincible love. Power Theologies basic error is to see s,w,m as evidence of God’s assertive control and power, whereas miracles are in fact evidence of love committed to the world. Miracles do happen and they can and at times do evoke faith, but they do not compel faith. They are gifts, and therefore not intended as objective agents that will pressurize people into faith. They are not so because faith is not like that, and neither is God. The overruling of power at the expense of love is a major problem that leads to a distorted theology and view of the church. Such a distortion leads to a failure of duty of care by those who push such views. And, unfortunately, we find many in this movement who are claiming healing revivals seem to be ethically corrupt as well. Three things:
a. there is always the problem of false religious experience. b. there is the problem in the way texts are selected as more important than others – and so s,w,m as a means of proving the gospel become pre-eminent. c. there is the problem of certainty, with certainty all too often being bound up with the charisma of the chief exponents as being primary sources of information for their followers. We need to embrace a God who respects humanity and encourages maturity. We also need to trust the power of the proclaimed gospel to save all who believe it. WJE
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