Can you help me? I'm trying to get an exciting new project off the ground called "The Go for Souls Experiment." I cant say too much about it just yet but you will want to be in on it. If you are in Melbourne I need you. I'm looking at doing something involving evangelizing every day (including street preaching, good test, healing, prophetic evangelism etc) and need some people to help out. If you can help out one day a week, or an afternoon or morning once a week let me know... (reelbigjimmy@hotmail.com)
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Don't forget to poll your answer on whether you believe Jesus raises the dead or not. So far the people of faith are winning 14-4...
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What holds you back from evangelism? Ive heard lots of reasons from fear of what people might think to "I would but I have no idea what to say." Well heres my response for today. Give your whole life to God, He will make you holy if you do, then because you are controlled by love it will drive fear away. (Perfect love drives out all fear 1 John 4:18) All your selfishness will disappear and because that experience is so good you will want to tell people about it. Don't forget that we in The Salvation Army believe that if you believe you have the witness in yourself and listen to what Peter has to say, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."
Thursday, May 29, 2008
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29 comments:
Whether anyone believes it is not the point. The only thing that matters is - is it true? If it's true, there would be clear, verifiable proof. So, got any proof yet? I'm still waiting.
Anon, are you really a human being or a demon? I need some proof.
You have never answered why you dont believe good Christian peoples testimony. You are filled with doubt which is the opposite to faith. You expect the worst of everyone and that is why you cant believe what people say.
We give you evidence that comes in the form of eye witness accounts. But thats not enough for you because people suck to you. You want medical records but there is none because they were raised from the dead.
I'm guessing the reason why you always go anonymous is because your life is full of sin and if you put your name down its going to discredit your points. Get some integrity, get some faith! Stop expecting the worse of everyone! You need healing so give me your name and phone number and I'll find someone to minister to you.
James, people are deceived and misled all the time. They may genuinely believe they have seen someone raised from the dead, when if fact that person was not really dead (no heartbeat, no breathing and no brain activity). If there were genuine cases it would be properly documented in at least some cases - I have continually asked you to provide some proof, yet you do not, because you cannot find any. Your only response is to insult me.
The reason I choose to be anonymous is shown in your last paragraph. I want you to take my words as written, not through whatever lens you would look through if you knew who I was. No matter who I am, I'm sure you would find some way to discredit me because I dare to disagree with you and challenge your assertions.
Typical anon. ignore everything i write.
Question 1) Are you a demon?
Question 2) Why do you not believe the testimony of good Christian men and women?
Question 3) Why do you expect everyone is trying to deceive you?
Question 4) Do you have sin in your life?
Statement: answer the questions.
Statement: I have never insulted you. I challenge you to find one time I have.
Statement: I'm not looking for records, and pieces of paper for you. Instead I'm challenging you to have some faith.
Statement: Anon people have something to hide.
SO: If you're so scared about it
a) repent and get right with God "perfect love casts out all fear" b) dont bother commenting anymore
c) see a shrink
statement: I'm not interested in talking to you because
a)I see no integrity in you (if you do have integrity lets see it)
b) you dont answer questions
c) your really sensitive (all i need to do is say my opinion and rebut you and you think im insulting you)
d) we go over the same thing time and time again
e) you seem to have serious issues with your self image (anon)
f) you have serious issues with believing what people say
therefore its impossible to have a meaningful conversation with you... If your interested in a conversation email me with your name and phone number.
1. No. Although perhaps to you I am one.
2. People's testimonies can be unreliable - they could be genuinely mistaken.
3. I don't. But some will.
4. Yes I do, but fortunately I am saved by grace. Do you really want me to go down the path of your 'holiness' doctrine, where what constitutes sin is so watered down just so people can self-proclaim themselves as holy and sinless? That's a whole other subject which I'm sure we could disagree on for hours.
Statement 1. I have.
Statement 2. You stated that I lack intergity and faith. I find that insulting.
Statement 3. You'ré not looking because you are afraid you will find the truth, which is that people aren't really being raised from the dead. You can't stand being wrong.
Statement 4. Not necessarily. Sometimes we just want to protect ourselves from the wackos out there in cyberspace.
Statement 5. You are not interested in talking to me because I challenge you to back up your statements, which you can't do.
thanks for answering...
if you say you are a human and not a demon then prove it. Where is some proof? I want to see birth certificates, drivers lisence, maybe even a name... Until then I'm not sure what you are...
Stop trying to twist things in order to get away from your lack of proof for what you claim. Have you ever told a lie James? What does that make you?
Until you can prove to me that you are a person I'm not going to believe that you are a person and so I wont talk anymore.
On the other hand, I've got proof of people being raised from the dead. Lots of people who have seen it and declare it as true. There was even an article about it happening in MX the other day by the way...
Anyways, if you want to keep chatting on this blog prove that you are a human.
OK James, you've discovered my secret. I am in fact a demon from the pit of hell, sent specifically to torment you on your blog. Therefore I am unable to provide you with any proof of my existence, you will just have to believe.
Honestly James, I don't know why I bother attempting to engage in any dialogue with you. The stuff that you and your buddies write is often so ridiculous that I can't help myself in commenting and challenging you to prove your outlandish and untrue claims. If you and your friends are going to become officers in the future, I dread having any of you come anywhere near my corps, where I will have to try and protect those that I care about from your extreme beliefs and practices.
In Matt 10:8 Jesus says;
"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons" so if you, anon, say that people aren't raised from the dead, then you are calling Jesus a liar and saying He doesn't have authority - that puts you in a bad place, doesn't it!
I think James has you here - I'd like to see your evidence too? I have a feeling I know you... do I??
Firstly anon, I never said you were a demon from the pit of hell. I was using that to get you to the point where you are. The point I am making is that I believe you are a human even though I don’t see any evidence. Not only that, you have the evidence but won’t show it! So you are right, I just have to believe. So do you.
But the most telling point you make is this, “The stuff you and your buddies write is so ridiculous… I dread any of you come anywhere near my corps where I will have to try and protect those that I care about from your extreme beliefs and practices.”
So here we see your real motives. You have already made up your mind in regard to signs and wonders, holiness, miracles etc. You say what we believe is ridiculous! You even call what we say as extreme! So we see you have pre-conceived ideas and what you have done is look for evidence to back up your claims instead of looking at all the evidence then deciding.
I have given you heaps of chances to come and look at my ministry. I have told you countless times to come see me and we will go to people who have been healed and have been involved in raising the dead. But instead you ignore those invitations then say to me, “Give me some proof for false claims!”
Do you see how ridiculous that is? I’m offering you to see God at work and you are more concerned with me not knowing who you are than you working out if anything is true or not!
Not only that, but you call me extreme. I hate that because I am not extreme by any means. All I do is believe the Bible, Jesus commands, have faith that He is not a liar, then I step out and see God do amazing things!
You deny healings, people being raised from the dead, and a holiness experience. What you have done is ripped God right out of human reality. All those things are done by God but you deny them.
Now, I’m not a betting man, but if I had to I would say that you are lacking in a real relationship with God! How can you worship a mute God who can’t/won’t do anything? That’s not my God! I have no idea how you can look at Christianity, look at Jesus and then tell me that I am extreme! Its sad.
You want proof? Come and get it!
No Simon you don't know me. As for quoting that scripture, how then do you interpret Mark 16:17-18?
James, they are my motives. I have seen people like you come and go, make outlandish claims in order to boost their supposed credibility as 'people of God', suck people into a belief system (signs & wonders) which ultimately falls apart and causes many people to walk away from God altogether.
Well James you did label annon a demon which is unfortunately a common approach made by people when challenged. Simon Peter needs to learn to do better than mere proof texting, Matthew 10:8 is part of the mission only to Israel by the Twelve, a mission ending in the possibility of blessing or judgment on Israel's towns and villages. You need to do better than this guys.
anon 1 - So because you have had a bad experience in the past you decide to dumb down the Bible and the commands of Jesus. Im not going to do that.
anon 2 - where did I call anon a demon? Every time I have mentioned it has always been a question. Prove me wrong. Just copy and paste, thats all you have to do.
And the whole thing about the demon thing is that I was using that to prove a point. The point is that we dont need paper to prove something. We can use peoples testimony.
About saying Mtthew 10 was just for the disciples, get real. Arent we suppose to have a ministry like Jesus? Do what Jesus did? Copy Jesus? To be like Jesus?
As for me doing this to boost my credibility as a man of God? What a joke. You obviously know nothing about me. And you probably never will becasue youre so scared about people knowing who you are!
If you guys are so worried about me get some guts and come talk to me or me and my corps officer.
Ï realise you were just making a point about proof when talking about a demon. I would ask when the poison drinking demonstration is going to happen, but I fear you guys might actually be crazy enough to try it.
Didn't call anon a demon - mmm. Seems though you may have thought he was one. Strange way to carry on a theological discussion. As for Matthew 10 shows a lack of understanding in how the subject of Jewish and Gentile mission works in Matthew's gospel. You will probably discover some of it if and when you get to college, as I understand there is are a couple of Majors there who know a fair amount about the subject. The problem with the signs and wonders stuff is it does cause a great deal of heart ache when that which is promised doesn't happen.
This is sad - so WHAT ABOUT Mark 16:17-18?? I have seen this in action - you want MORE proof - like James has said - come and see it!!!!!
You say I "need(s) to learn to do better than mere proof texting, Matthew 10:8 is part of the mission only to Israel by the Twelve, a mission ending in the possibility of blessing or judgment on Israel's towns and villages. You need to do better than this guys."
You seem to have great wisdom but lack the truth and experience of it - that's why you are bitter!
How do we need to do better than this - it sounds we are doing ok, we are seeing "...these signs (that) will accompany those who believe" (Mark 16:17) and you are not so by the sounds, maybe you are the one who needs to be doing better. By what authority do these things happen then, it seems it went futher than just the "mission only to Israel by the Twelve..."!
I hate to sound like I'm talking down to you, but this is what you are trying to do to us with what backing - theological teaching inside a classroom? Please give us your credibility for your qualified 'critique' of our ministiries.
Why raise the demon question in the first place? In regards to Matthew 10 you answers show a lack of biblical know how when it comes to mission in Matthews gospel and how it relates to Jesus' ministry and mission to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles. I have learned a great deal about this from two Majors who are at present at the Training College. Proof texting simply doesn't work. Nor does a focus on signs and wonders. Nor does trusting people like R Bonke. Passing corps info is passing the buck. Which reminds me you didn't answer what you meant by "got saved". Add to this - what do you mean by "gospel"?
Anon 1 - poision drinking, of course I believe that. Why wouldn't I? My God can save me. Doesn't mean I'm going to go and drink poison tho...
Anon 2 - spend some time reading and rereading what I have actually said... Anon 1 was saying he needed proof on paper to believe a miracle occured.
All I was doing by the demon comment was to get him to realise that paper doesn't mean everything. If I had my time over I wouldn't have asked if he was a demon i would replace with it with monkey because the demon thing has nothing to do with anything...
Tell me about your stories of people being hurt by miracles or lack of and stuff. Im keen to hear where your coming from.
It has been suggest I have a look at this debate seeing as I am one of the Majors mentioned. First I note that there seems to be some angst around being critiqued, this is part and parcel of putting ourselves out there and we are called upon to test everything. Labelling and name calling doesn’t make for credibility. The way of 'doing mission' is the way of encouragement and mutual helpfulness. Next, the Matthew and now Mark texts. What anon says about Matthew is correct. Mat.10:5-6. 15:24 Jesus does restrict the Twelve’ mission to Israel and his own to the ‘house of Israel’. This of course changes after the resurrection and so 28:16-20 sees mission as going to all nations and does the other gospel writers. What is interesting with the four Gospels (and Acts 1:8) is their commissioning texts. Three do not carry a signs and wonders, Mark 16:14-20 does. Mark doesn’t say ‘if you drink’ etc but ‘you will’. This is why we have a sect in the US that does handle rattlers as part of their worship services. Proof texting simply does not work - you need to be able to argue canonically. What is interesting about signs and wonders is that they are not found on every page but are in fact clustered around Moses, Elijah & Elisha, and Jesus. The common denominator is the give of revelation and they confirm the messenger and the revelation. Scripture notes that revelation is complete in Jesus Christ which would suggest that as scripture does there is no more hence there is no more need for signs and wonders unless of course you are suggesting you are putting forward new revelation. If this is the case then maybe Jesus is not the Christ. You seem to what qualified people to critique well, As an officer and a biblical theologian I have studied and taught extensively and have a pretty good handle on scripture and the Mission of God. I am well aware of what goes on and have experienced the power of the gospel in places such as Singapore and Papua New Guinea.Mission is not something we take upon ourselves, however nobly we may conceive of our duty and obligation. Rather, it is something God draws us into. The success or failure of TSA is ultimately God's concern and is in God's hands. Mission is the opportunity to be a witness - to demonstrate through oone's own example that God is at work in the world. Being a witness is a humble role. Wayne Ennis
Thanks for commenting wayne! I love it when people critique me with bible and theology. I love it when someone can add to the discussion a different point of mine without having to be anonymous!
"What is interesting about signs and wonders is that they are not found on every page but are in fact clustered around Moses, Elijah & Elisha, and Jesus. The common denominator is the give of revelation and they confirm the messenger and the revelation. Scripture notes that revelation is complete in Jesus Christ which would suggest that as scripture does there is no more hence there is no more need for signs and wonders unless of course you are suggesting you are putting forward new revelation."
Come on wayne, what about david, joshua, Daniel, shadrack Meeshack and Abendigo? What about the book of Acts where signs and wonders are happening all the time? What about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in 1 cor 12?
What about being like Jesus? What about doing 'greater things than these?'
Signs and wonders are everywhere.
I agree that it is Gods mission, so if Jesus shows what that mission looks like how can we be so bold to dismiss signs and wonders?
Like you said, they still happen. And I have seen it happen, I see it happen regularly. And Im not trying to put new revelation out there, all Im saying is that God still does them and we should expect them to happen...
what do you think?
Hey Major,
So you said
"Scripture notes that revelation is complete in Jesus Christ which would suggest that as scripture does there is no more hence there is no more need for signs and wonders unless of course you are suggesting you are putting forward new revelation"
so what about everything that happened after Jesus ie, all the 'stuff' Paul, Peter and the crew did for example in the book of Acts - what's going on there?? Am I just reading your comment the wrong way?!?!
I don't think it's always about giving a new revelation as such, but 'THE' revelation into people today that don't know it already, using what Jesus used, plus the 'greater things than these' Jesus left us with also! [John 14:11-13]
Why do we think the focus of mission is on ‘signs, wonders and miracles?’ Ancient Israel spent forty years in the wildness with a man who performed more s,w,m’s than Jesus, as we know none of it produced faith. Maybe this is why neither Matthew, Luke, John and Mark 13:10 (which seems to be Mark’s version of a commissioning) don’t attach them to their commissioning. In Singapore and PNG s,w,m is not an issue nor is it seem as necessary. The church is growing in both places. PNG TSA growth is between 10-20%/year. In both places they rely on the proclamation of the Gospel and a faith witness to what God has done in Jesus Christ. Remember both these culture have a far better awareness of the spirit world than, dare I say you do.
We need a mission theology that is centred on the cross, seeing as the cross was the unavoidable cost of God’s mission. It was the goal of God’s mission to deal with evil, human sin and death and to reconcile the whole cosmos. The cross is the unavoidable centre of our mission – it is the source, and power and as that it defines the scope of mission. The cross is also the unavoidable dimension of discipleship. So if we are going to be like Jesus them participation by Jesus in God’s mission required him to take up the cross and obey his Father. Our participation as disciples in Christ’s mission requires us to take up the cross and follow the Son. WJE
The Synoptic Gospels identify three main tasks of Jesus before his crucifixion: preaching, teaching, and healing. These activities drew people to him. They may accept or reject him. Through these ‘signs’ people were invited to see the power of God at work through Jesus and to enter the compassionate reign of God. Salvation is not a private transaction between the individual and God, but a social reality of transformed relationships. We are not saying that healing is not one of the characteristics of the missional church. However, we do need to see healing in its broad sense – healing of emotions, forgiveness of sins, peace, reconciliation, freedom, and restoration of justice and right relationships, as well as physical healing. Numerous theologies about healing are, however, defective. Although healing is good, it is not the ultimate goal in the Christian life. Being in the love of God, life in the Spirit, and living in the grace of God are all far more important. For Christians, dying for Christ’s sake may be more important than simply extending life. Something I re-learned in PNG- we had four active officers die what we were there. Preaching – a rather political word in the NT. It means ‘to announce’ or ‘proclaim publicly’. The message is the ‘gospel’ of the good news that the king is coming. Interestingly, the ‘gospel’ is not about us, it is about God’s faithfulness to his covenant and what he has done in the person and work of Jesus Christ. While the proclamation could be the catalyst for dramatic conversion, the focus is not on the fate of the individual soul or on self-realization, but on God (1 Pet.2:9). Making public pronouncements about the actions of God and the reign of God is the task of the church. Our identity and our vision is both caught and taught and so the task it not complete without an intentional process of teaching within the church. Rather than indulging in a fascination with s,w,m it may be much better to wrestle with questions like: How did the scriptures prepare the early church for its mission, and how do they prepare us for ours? What does this text tell us about the gospel? What does it tell us about ourselves? About our world? What does this text show us about the way in which the gospel is to be made known? How does this text challenge us to be converted? WJE
I completely agree wayne with the cross being the center and I practice that in my ministry.
At the same time I believe God loves people and wants to heal them, I believe God speaks and wants us to hear him, I believe God sets people free from depression , addiction etc.
I see the gospel as alot more than just being saved from hell. As you say it all revolves around the cross.
sorry, didn't see the last comment!
Why are people assuming that we have an unhealty appreciation for signs and wonders? And why should we divert attention away from one area of study? Surely we can study, think about, and practice signs and wonders as well as preaching the gospel, mission etc...
I could have this wrong but it just seems like you're trying to duck away from miracles as if they're not very important.
In our thinking of mission we have always proclaimed Jesus died and risen to save us, but we also demonstrate what that means with the use of signs and wonders, which by the way is not done in our power but in Gods power. So, I'm left with the question with why would God still do these things if we are doing the wrong thing? Wouldn't He just stop blessing such a ministry?
I think WJE is saying that the signs stuff is attached to specific people and the giving of rvelation. He doesn't say not to look at it but to put it back into it context and to remember that not everything in the Bible come on into today. The thing about this signs stuff is as Christians from China, Burma and place similar say - it is a rich western christian thing that is part and parcel of shonky people who put themselves up as revivalists. GH
People suggest the focus on s,w,m is unhealthy because of the emphasis your blog seems to place upon it. As I mentioned I have served in overseas territories and what is interesting in these places is the lack of emphasis on s,w,m and yet these place are growing at a conservative rate of 10-20% a year. PNG was even more interesting because of the emphasis on the cross and the believe in the proclamation of the gospel, the demonstration of the power of the gospel was in transformed lives not on miraculous manifestations. Officers would tell me that manifestation were not necessary proof and that sorcerers were also quite capable of producing similar manifestation. Burma was similar and the approach to mission was also similar to PNG. Chinese friends would say that all this emphasis on s,w,m was a Western thing and they saw it as failure on our part to trust the power of the gospel to convert people. They also said that none of this surprised them considering how Western Christians saw the gospel as a message directed to meeting their needs and is about something good that happens to us. They would say that us westerners think of meeting our needs as the central purposes of our lives and so we tend to speak about the gospel in terms of its impact upon us, Scripture tends to speak of the gospel as a revelation of who God is and his faithfulness. It is about God’s new purposes for the world that are revealed in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Given the diversity of ideas we have to deal with, no wonder it is often easier to talk about our experiences and manifestations than to talk about the God revealed in the gospel. Experiences are tangible, God is mysterious, elusive, and transcendent. Since we find ourselves in a scientific, technologically driven world that leaves little room for God, it is simpler to shift the focus to experience and s,w,m as proof of the experience.. Most of this stuff is found in the extreme end of Pentecostalism and unfortunately many of those who practice it as part of their ministries have all too often been proven to be heretical in their doctrine and unethical in their living. WJE
thanks for commenting guys, youve helped me understand where you are coming from and forced me to define some of my beliefs...
see todays post...
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