The Spiritual War

We’re going through a pretty good time at Plenty Valley. A couple of ago we made a goal to get 20 people saved by the end of the year. With 2 months to go we are down to only needing 5 or 6 more to achieve that goal! Hallelujah! Yes, that means 14 or 15 people saved in 2 months! Pretty good going hey?

Yesterday was the first official day of Revolution Recruits! Very exciting! They all signed a promise saying that they believe in Jesus, and that they’re going to pray and read their bible every day, and try to show the love of God at all times… It is a bit wishy washy but that’s because that’s what the trainings about, getting them to a point where they are not wishy washy.

We also went out and handed out stuff like light bulbs and water bottles with appropriate bible messages on them. Steve is an anointed evangelist. He had the privilege of leading another person to Christ! Hallelujah!

The thing is, every time in my ministry at P.V when we’re going really good, or approaching good times, something goes wrong. We’ve had mums pull their kids out of stuff for all sorts of reasons during my time here… Because we’re small, when a few youth go then it’s like we need to start all over again.

And so today I ask for prayer, that as we advance the Kingdom of God in Plenty Valley, that God will protect and shield the youth and that they will be given a time to grow as warriors so that as they do move on, the gospel message will move with them… Thanks

Spiritual Warfare

Firstly, I had that vision of hell but my mate Steve from church had an even crazier one on the weekend which included smells and stuff! Infact, he smelt something that was yuck and didnt know what it was. Then today he smelt in class... The smell of burning hair which is also the same smell as sulfur... Thank you Jesus that i don't need to burn in hell! You can check out his blog here. It's his first blog so we'll see if he keeps it up...

Secondly, did Strike tonight at Macleod with Simon M. It was great. The topic was Spiritual warfare. A huge topic for a small amount of time. We could have done heaps more but we fitted in some cool stuff. We were able to change some beliefs shaped by TV, and told them about the Bibles version! We then prayed for the gift of discernment.

The way we tackled the topic was to basically say angels and demons are real. Angels out number demons 2:1, God has authority (Matthew 28), He gave it to us (luke 10:19), then how to be protected, (Ephesians 6) and how to get set free from them! Thank you Jesus for our salvation!

So, if you think your possessed, or know someone who is, take them to the Macleod folk who will deal with it! They have authority from God, faith to back it up, the armor of God on, and now know what to do! I can just see it now, the demons having an emergency meeting tomorrow morning as all the kids wake up! hahaha Glory to God!

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8

Hell

During "Go For Souls" we were challenged to ask God to show us hell. We were told that one of the reasons why we don't evangelise as we should is because hell isn't real enough. I think thats a good point. Imagine if we actually applied that to the people we love, our friends, family, neighbours etc! Man, would we be busy!

Anyway, i had a vision of hell at the conference, here it is...

I saw the gates to hell and behind it were people aglow. they were glowing because it was so hot. And, they were all weird looking like they'd been melted. And as i stood at the gate into hell i saw hands reaching out, trying to escape. But, sadly, they couldnt. The other thing about it was that there was no sound. no screaming, because there tongues were so parched.

i was talking to someone who knew someone who worked with William booth. when he was asked why Booth was such an effective evangelist he paused then said, "Because he had such a strong belief in hell." Wow.

i don't know about you, but I don't want anyone to go to hell. And as Catherine Booth said, "Its Jesus or Hell!" Or as Jesus said when talking about Himself, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son"

freinds dont let friends burn in hell.

Soldiers

What was your Soldiership training like? What did you learn? Did you learn anything? Was it mostly the doctrines? Mostly the therefores? A bit of both? Was it memorable? Was it rushed? Was it hard? Did it teach you anything practical? Did you learn about how serious a covenant really is? Did you learn how to win the world for Jesus?

From what I have seen and read Soldiership training these days is pretty soft. When I say Soldiership I mean Junior and Senior! Theres no edge to it. Its not hard core. Its almost....boring. It certainly doesn't resemble anything that is going to actually win the world for Jesus. (My opinion, you can disagree...) What I mean is, we have a massive vision, "Win the world for Jesus." But our training doesn't look like it can achieve that goal!

So, I'm working on a solution. I'm not saying its perfect, or the best...yet.lol But the training I'm doing for my youth is practical. How to get people saved, how to do exorcisms, how to heal the sick, how to get holy and stay holy! In fact, the training will be so hard core that I'm even going to learn as I teach it. We're doing 1 worship, 1 Bible study and 1 outreach every week as their training, thats serving and saving on alternate weeks, although, most of the time we can do both at the same time. Then to be sworn in as a Soldier, you need to have started up your own initiative to get people served and saved!

I'm interested, what did your Soldiership training teach you?

Meagan

Tonight Meagan came to thursday night like she has been for a while. She says that,

"Life was just too much, too much hard work to live. Too many people making it worse, and people trying to make it better but actually making it worse. People were trying to help me, but without knowing it they were pushing me towards sinning. Tonight I prayed that God will come into my life and help me, so that I dont live my life on sand but on the rock! Now I feel different! I feel like I dont need to make up for all the bad things I've done wrong because Gods forgiven what Ive done wrong! He's helped me choose what path I want to take to getting my path on track and making me happier! He's helped me not be my worst nightmare! Im now looking forward to having fun, and being able to smile without doing the wrong thing!"

What a testimony hey??? Pray for her as she starts her walk with God! Another one for the Kingdom! Hallelujah!

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. Mathew 7:25

Why Muslims follow Jesus...

I read a fantastic article today called "Why Muslims follow Jesus." I have a heart for Muslims as I lived in Bangladesh but check out the article! Heres a few of the points I got from it:

the number of new Christians each year outstrips the number of new Muslims...Muslims are increasing in sub-Saharan Africa and among African Americans by conversion, but elsewhere the growth is mostly by birth or immigration. The major growth for Protestants, especially evangelicals and Pentecostals, has been by conversion.

Reasons why Muslims are converting to Christianity:

1) Seeing a lived faith

• the power of God in answered prayers and healing.

• deliverance from demonic power as another reason they were attracted to Jesus.

• dissatisfaction with the type of Islam they had experienced.

• As with Paul and Cornelius in Acts, visions and dreams played a role in the conversion of many. More than one in four respondents, 27 percent, noted dreams and visions before their decision for Christ, 40 percent at the time of conversion, and 45 percent afterward.

2) The message is the medium

• The gospel message, especially its assurance of salvation and forgiveness, is also a significant attraction to Muslims.

• the spiritual truth in the Bible.

• Bible's teaching about the love of God

• love expressed through the life and teachings of Jesus.

Its amazing, Salvo theology goes so well with that. Incarnational living and loving, signs and wonders and holiness! Simon, you know what I'm thinking...lol

Revolution Recruits

We at Plenty Valley have turned our attention to discipling this term. Not an easy thing for me to do being such a lover of trying to get people saved! So, we're doing Soldiership Training, now called Revolution Recruits as our discipleship tool. It's not going to be all sitting down and listening to a boring guy like babble on, but each week these recruits fore the revolution will attend a worship, outreach and Bible study activity!

The outreach is going to be a mix of slum brigade type stuff, helping people in our neighbourhood with acts of kindness and service, mixed with street preaching, prophetic evangelism and "Pray For Souls." (P4S is a monthly prayer meeting we're having to pray for souls)

Everyones welcome as we at Plenty Valley are recruiting revolutionaries for the revolution, but what we really need is people to help disciple. If you are an active soldier, can evangelise, mentor, serve and disciple well, then we need you to help disciple this next generation of revoltuionaries!

I'll keep you posted as these Revolution Recruits storm the forts of darkness!

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" Matthew 28:19

Sacrifice

Ive heard a couple of people talk about sacrifice today, especially in regards to Officership.

For a while my grandparents didn't even get paid as Officers. They would go collecting at Pubs and the like just to survive. They survived on peoples good will, my Nana recalls a lady who use to feed them and every now and then would even give her a steak! For a time, my grandparents like many others didn't even get paid as Officers. Thats what I call sacrifice.

When we were in Bangladesh we met some new officers. They told us a story of how they were living in there hut in the village, they had nothing. Literally nothing, and a thief came in during the night. "Give me your valuables" the thief demanded, they replied, "The most valuable thing we have is Jesus..." They then preached to this man who I believe later converted. All these two Officers had was Jesus! Now, thats what I call sacrifice.

As an Officers kid I can reassure everyone that we never went without. Yes, sometimes it was tight and we had to miss out on things, but we are called to sacrifice! It has taught me that Jesus is the most valuable thing we can have.

And who is the ultimate teacher on sacrifice? Jesus. The Holy Creator God tortured, killed and mocked for us, sinners. Why did He do it? Love. Why do we sacrifice? Love.

I often wonder if we didn't get paid as Officers would we would grow more as people like the thief in the night would see that the most valuable thing we have is Jesus... What do you think?

Check out Pete and Jo Brookshaws blogs and see how you can support cadets (soon to be officers) overseas with their inventive initiative, TACO. (Train A Cadet Overseas)

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Romans 12:1

Prayers for October 2007
From The Voice of the Martyrs

NIGERIA Christians Killed by Muslims; Hundreds Displaced in Kano, Nigeria – VOM Sources

On September 28, angry Muslims killed 10 Christians and set churches, homes and businesses on fire in Tudun Wada, in Nigeria's Northern state of Kano. According to The Voice of the Martyrs' contacts in Nigeria, "At 9 a.m., Muslims began the attacks, setting fire to homes and churches. They attacked and killed any Christian they came across." More than 50 people were injured, while more than 500 members of the minority Christian population were displaced. VOM contacts added, "Muslim attackers burnt down all eight churches existing in the community, homes and businesses in the area."

Christians believe the attack resulted when Muslim students at a government secondary school in the area claimed a Christian student drew a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad on the wall of the school's mosque. VOM contacts reported, "No Christian student would do this, since the school has nearly 2,000 students and only seven are Christian.... [also] the mosque is usually busy with Muslims praying around the clock during the (Muslim) Ramadan fasting season; therefore, no Christian student would have any way of getting close to the wall of the mosque to make such sketches on the wall." Pray for the families of those killed. Pray the Holy Spirit will be their greatest comforter. Ask God to encourage and provide for believers in this area. Psalm 119:105, Proverbs 3:5, 6

Sign up and pray! http://www.persecution.com/

New Blog

My really cool, Jesus loving girl friend has started blogging again... check her blog out at www.livingthebestforgod.blogspot.com.

Also, when I read the Bible Spiritual gifts seem to be things we didn't have before we were baptised in the Holy Spirit, then once baptised in the Holy Spirit they are opend up to us... Sarah can testify that even though she was a born again Christian until she was baptised in the Holy Spirit she didn't have any "Spiritual Gifts" as such. But once baptised in the Holy Spirit she now has gifts like visions etc... Have you been baptised in the Holy Spirit? Do you have Spiritual Gifts or just skills you have had since birth or since you started learning them? Ask the Holy Spirit to fall upon you right now and open up "Spiritual Gifts" to you!

Eccentric Ezekiel

Ive been reading the book of Ezekiel, I love it. There is only one way to describe Ezekiel, he was a crazy crazy man. In todays world we would think he was some weird cult leader!

Ezekiel was a Priest and a prophet, which is kind of rare, which means not only did He work in the temple but He told people what God was saying. From what Ive briefly read it all starts when he has a vision of God, in what I can only describe as a spaceship! I kid you not! Imagine telling people you saw a spaceship and God spoke to you! People would think you were crazy! Thats what Ezekiel was like! (read Ezekiel 1 for a glimpse of the space ship!lol)

He was one of those weird guys that says stuff like, "God told me that..." Even worse he would tell people stuff they didn't want to hear! God had told him that he had to tell people what their sins were because if they didn't and they died then their blood would be on his hands! Imagine being told you need to tell your whole school how their sinning otherwise Gods going to hold you responsible?!? He must have been crazy going around telling people all their sins, I'm guessing he didn't have many friends...

Also, as hes telling people stuff he demonstrates it in all sorts of weird and offensive ways. One of those ways is by lying on his side for 390 days then turning over to the other side and doing the same thing just to prove a point! And to make things worse, he had his food there and God was telling him to cook while he was lying there, so Ezekiel needed a fire to cook. Because he wasn't allowed to move the only thing he was allowed to burn was his own poo!!!! So Ezekiel compromised with God and they decided he wouldn't use his own poo, but he'd use cow poo! YUCK!Imagine if you were doing that? What would people in church think? What would your Corps officer think? I can just see it now, We get the message but thats just too much, don't make too much of a scene, your scaring the people in the church, they think your crazy!" Hahaha

Isn't Ezekiel a bit of a glimpse of how us Christians are seen like sometimes? He sometimes has unpopular beliefs, he tells people they need to repent, he does weird things, he says he hears and sees God, he must have offended and freaked out so many people! But he had good reason to, God told him to! Maybe you know someone who's like this, maybe you need stop judging them, maybe you need to encourage them, maybe thats what God is calling you to. Today, be encouraged that even though God asks us to do things that are weird and wacky, that you are not alone, and that God will reward you! Are you a Jesus freak like Ezeek the geek?

Ezekiel 3:16-19
16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for ^[a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

Anonymous part 3

Ive had quite a few emails and comments left about the whole "Anonymous" thing so I think I will keep this strand going for a little longer. Im not sure how much I will be able to comment back and forth because Im going to the beach for a few days R&R...

Firstly, lets look at the Scripture I have used...

I wrote, "a light on hill cannot be hidden. (therefore if your hiding something maybe its dark...) If you are scared to comment maybe you are wrong!" Thats taken from Matthew 5. In this passage Jesus is saying that "You" referring to the people listening (thats us) are like a light on a hill if we follow Jesus. Heres the whole thing...

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:14-16)

If anonymous is a follower of Jesus, (which he/she always says they are...) then we're not suppose to put it under a bowl to be hidden. Thats stupid. In fact, not only is it stupid to hide, but Jesus tells us to shine behind all men! Why? So that people may see your good deeds and praise Jesus! Which, is exactly the point Im making, if you have something worthwhile saying, something of light, then don't put it under a bowl, that is, let us see your life so we can praise God. If you are in the light and you hide the light (which is what anon does... although, more reguarly than not its not light but dark...) then that is a slap in the face of Jesus and a direct act of disobedience.

I wrote, "If you are scared to comment maybe you are wrong!" Well heres something to mull over, "18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 What is that talking about, basically if you are made perfect in love then you have nothjing to fear, but not only that love drives that fear away. Don't be fooled people, fear is from the devil. (Not talking about fear of the Lord, which is a different type of fear which Im not going into...) What does fear have to do with? Punishment? If you write a comment and your scared of it then it must have to do with some sort of punishment. Why would you be punished for tlaking in the light? Are you afraid of other people?

I said, ""Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Which is not my words but a direct quote of Jesus in Matthew 10:28! And as I looked back it this morning its made even better sense, "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." A far cry from "Im anon so people dont get me!" (lots of emails about that one...) I din't say it, Jesus did and its exactly what we're talking about. If you are an exception to this then it must be from the dark... But hey, I have been wrong before, try and prove me wrong!

Isn't it amazing that the Bible is filled with things about if you follow Jesus you will be persecuted yet we want to be anonymous because we dont want to pay the price. Imagine if Jesus kept anonymous so He wouldnt pay the price! hahaha what a joke!

And the last scripture. I put that in because whenever the conversation starts between me and "anonymous" they start crying that theyve been attacked. I work from the Bible, history, tradition, experience and reason. But sadly so many "anonymous" is from reason alone. Of course Im going to have a stronger arguement, I have so much more authority! Not my authority, but the Bible as authorative, and history, reason, tradition etc to back it up.

If I just left this conversation go I would be saying that you are all scoffers. But Im trying to reason with you and show my point because I believe that some of you will take it on. Most of what I have said, I believe is from God through the words of Jesus. I do not see any evidence at all in the Bible that we should be scared of one thing or the other, rather I see that God has told us to be a light, a light which you don't put under a bowl...

What do you guys think of the scripture I have used? And please, don't go silly, Im away and wont be able to delete your comments for a few days...lol

"Anonymous" (2nd edition...)

If you are one of the people that comments as "Anony mous" maybe have a think about what you are hiding, and before you comment get your life in such a way that you don't care if people know it's you for a light on hill cannot be hidden. (therefore if your hiding something maybe its dark...) If you are scared to comment maybe you are wrong! "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)

Thats all I'm going to say to anonymous, and to all you bloggers that get annoying anonymous comments, and all you pastors that get stupid anonymous letters, heres a passage from Proverbs I read on Kelvin Merrett's new blog, "If you reason with an arrogant cynic, you'll get slapped in the face; confront bad behavior and get a kick in the shins.So don't waste your time on a scoffer; all you'll get for your pains is abuse.But if you correct those who care about life, that's different—they'll love you for it!Save your breath for the wise—they'll be wiser for it; tell good people what you know—they'll profit from it.Skilled living gets its start in the Fear-of-God, insight into life from knowing a Holy God.It's through me, Lady Wisdom, that your life deepens, and the years of your life ripen.Live wisely and wisdom will permeate your life; mock life and life will mock you." Proverbs 9:7-12

Who are you voting for?

On the weekend Jason Golden told us that his boss Pastor Danny Nahlia had a chance to meet the Prime Minister not long ago. During this time the PM was told to repent, which apparently he did. Perhaps evidence of this is in his new view on the Aborigines... Pastor Danny has also now prophesied that John Howard will win the election! A very bold prophesy considering what the opinion polls are saying!

As voting time comes closer I wonder who to vote for. Let me explain...

1) Which politician to vote for. Do I vote for the one who has a Christian value/moral system, or the guy with more of a Christian view on the marginalized?

I am simplifying a few things but here we go. Also, this is not all there is to these guys, this isn't deep, just something thats been on my mind...

John Howard opposes same sex marriages, opposes abortion, has good economy, good record, and stands up for what he believes in. He allows for freedom of speech. But his laws concerning the poor and marginalized seriously need some work. He says he is a Christian, he repents, prays etc

Kevin Rudd seems to be great for the working class. He seems to care about the average people, and the lower income people. The social type stuff. But he is in favor of abortion, same sex marriage, and religious vilification laws that prohibit intense debate between religions.

"On SBS News Friday 28 September, Mr Rudd was asked the following question - “Mr Rudd, do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?" Mr Rudd’s answer - "Well, I'm a - I'm a, a person who attends church regularly."

2) Which leads me to, who am I voting for. Not which politician but in this election who do I want to be better of? Do I vote for me? Or for the struggling family down the road who get racially abused because they are Africans? Surely both are valid... And at the same time we are to love our neighbor as our self. I think the Christian thing to do is to vote for others...

And just one more question to add while I'm thinking about it. Throughout history whenever there is persecution of the Christians the gospel spreads. If we get religious vilification laws that would persecute Christians would the gospel grow, therefore meaning should we welcome religious persecution???

I know there are gaps in what I have said, pick them out. But tell me who (for you or others) are you voting for? And did I make any sense?

GO FOR SOULS

Hallelujah!

I'm on my way out the door for church but thought you'd like to know:

10 Salvations (9 during outreach!!!)
2 Testified to being healed (1 physical the other emotional)
2 Sanctifications during outreach (I think a couple more last night...)
Heaps of seeds sewn
Amazing worship! Like real hard core letting it rip screaming out to God worship! There were so many times we all just stood there wanting to keep going coz it was so good!
Great preaching, Xander, Jason Golden and Rowan, with electives by the above and Steve Court
And heaps of other stuff

Great weekend, more on it soon!

GO FOR SOULS!

“Go For Souls” starts tomorrow!!!!!
Evening rallies are free!
Get as many people there as you can!
Lets see heaps of people get saved!
Don’t chicken out! What would have happened if Jesus chickend out before He went to the cross?
Jesus commands you to evangelise!
Whats stopping you?
Lets change whatever it is!
Come to Go For Souls evangelism conference!

PLEASE PASS THIS MESSAGE ON! MYSPACE AND BLOG IT ALL YOU CAN! SMS YOUR FRIENDS!

Check out the details at www.goforsouls.blogspot.com copy the poster on there and pass it on to everyone!

Thanks guys!

Catch the Fire

I visited "Catch the Fire Ministries" today and had a great time. They are a para-church team who are trying to unite Australian Christians in prayer to win Australia for Jesus. All the people I met today are on fire for God and firey evangelists! A couple of things stood out to me.

The guy I was visiting, Jason, has a Salvation Army flag on his wall! And there was our Territories 24/7 prayer information being flashed all around the office! Someone had found it on the internet and was showing everyone! (thats even before i got there...)
The people there are all different ages! They have young and old evangelists, and when I say old they were like 70 years old plus and still preaching it! hahaha
The stories they shared were amazing! People getting saved left, right and center! Stories of people leading people to Christ on the way to the bank, in the line at the bank, walking to work, and even sitting in the car at the traffic lights talking to the guy in the car next to him!

The underlying theme of everything they do is "Win the world for Jesus!" and it shows, all the staff want to see people saved, they all work for it, pray for it, and then God blesses them and they see it! Hallelujah!

Jason is a great evangelist and has lots to teach us all. He will be speaking at "Go For Souls" Evangelism conference on Saturday morning! You should all come and be challenged! the night sessions are free, the whole thing is only $10, and if you cant pay that I'll give you a job and you can come anyway. There is no excuse for not coming. This is what God calls us to. It is a command to evangelise! What is your response? I cant? I dont know how to? I dont know what to say? Well, if thats so, come to the conference! Skip work, family etc, get there! Our dieing world needs you!

Introverted Evangelism (part 1,part 2 @ Go for Souls)

I am a bit of an extrovert. So when I do evangelism the first thing I can say to someone I have never met before, or even someone I know could be, "Do you believe in Jesus?" I am confident to say that. I am confident to ask questions, probe, challenge etc all on the spot. I see people saved quite reguarly, Hallelujah! But I often feel sorry for introverts.

I am sorry for introverts because they seem to think that evangelism is for extroverts. I feel sorry for them because they think that they need to be like me to be a good evangelist. When really thats crap. God calls us all to be evangelists, we are all parts of a body, we all have different personalities, so we will evangelise in our own way. The problem is that introverts see extroverted evangelists then shy away from evangelism because they think thats how you should do it.

But! Introverts have a lot of qualities I dont have. Look at this:
Extrovert: “act-think-act."
Introvert: “think-act-think.”

Introverts focus on deeper relationships, whilst extroverts can scan a room of people to talk to. Introverts can be great evangelists, they just need to make evangelsim a priority, get passionate about evangelism, and use the personality that God has given them. It will require patience and prayer, but God will make a way.

Check out this link, it will help you out alot!
http://www.onmission.com/site/c.cnKHIPNuEoG/b.2270961/k.7B4F/Evangelism_for_Introverts.htm

Church

Just a thought,

The Army grows when we have outposts and new ventures. When we dont have them we seem to go backwards and actually decline in numbers. What comes first the new plant or a healthy corps that produces people to start the plant??? It doesnt matter. But what does matter id that we need to plant more corps, outposts etc...

If we do this we need them to be fruitful. What works is the first question I ask. We seem to have a few lines of thought here.
1) Attractional church- where we have a big meeting and try to attract people to us, and more specifically to our meetings
2) Integrated- where we try to integrate social work stuff to the corps that is sort of attractional
3)Incarnational- Where we live in a community, work intensively with the people we live near

I dont think Attractional works in the Salvos. Why? Because we're too small, our leaders are spread too thin, and our quality can be beaten very easy.

I havent seen the integrated approach work very well. Why? Because corps are piggy backed by the social stuff and pick up on the spiritual, and the people see right through it and arent cared for or brought into the community.

Incarnational works on a small scale, but when trying to make it grow can be hard. But places like Vancouver 614 has worked if over 150 people in just 54 years in their corps last time I heard.

Incarnational is Biblical (John 1) it is hard work (you cant lie about whether you love people or not, people see straight through it) it is also multiplication based (not addition based, so not just adding 1 person every now and then, its getting new people who start new cells etc..) But it can often missed out on joining together as a large group, but a weekly prayer meeting will sort that out easy!

The question I am often faced with is how did the salvos in the early days disciple their people so fast? How can we do that today?

Anyways, I think incarnational is the way to go, I don't see any other way working, whilst I see places like 614 in Melbourne, Vancouver, and Cho's church growing fast in a cell based incarnational way! What do you think?

The Word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood. John 1:14 (MSG)