To declare positively that people are sinners, condemned already and on their way to hell, is accounted as 'uncharitable judging', 'really dreadful', and no one we are told, can possibly be justified in coming to such a conclusion. All this we could understand perfectly, coming from the camps of infidelity or from the haunts of vice; but to find it passed off in connection with the same name and teachings of Jesus Christ is monstorous! - Catherine Booth
In todays world we evangelists and 'fundamentalists' are told not to talk about hell, sin or judgment. It scares people. It puts people off, it gives Christians a bad name. People then go on to say how it was ok for Christians to do it in another year, but its not relevant anymore. Well, it was exactly the same in Catherine Booths day as we can see from the above quote. There has always been part of the church that can not make the link between justice and love.
Its sad becasue these people are generally genuine and wanting to love all people. Where is that people have gotten all muddled up and replaced justice for hate? Where have they lost the fact that God is holy? Where have they lost the fact that sin is an abomination to God? Or that sin separates us from God? Where did they lose the fact that God wants everyone to be saved so He sent Jesus to die for us, to take our place? Where did they lose the part that says God loves us even though we sin? How can they not see that sin leads to death but Jesus leads to life?
Tuesday, December 09, 2008
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
10 comments:
If hell as a place of eternal conscious torment is real, then letting people know about it should be the most important message in the bible. Yet is it not mentioned as such in the old testament, nor in any of Paul's writings. Why is that?
I think that in years gone by when people were more or less considered fundamentalists that heaven and hell were preached more often than they are today. It was the norm to teach these principles and facts. It is not necessarily just the fundamentalists who are at fault - it was actually those who wanted to water down the
Gospel message and they are of more recent years. I know of one Officer who would have come under the description of fundamentalist who used to preach about hell almost every Sunday night (as well as salvation and how to not go to hell!).It has largely come about since we stopped having a distinction between Holiness and Salvation Meetings. Z
1: If God wants everyone to be saved, but many people are not, is this an example of God's will not being fulfilled? Another example of a weak god? Why would man's will prevail over God's will for eternity? Or is it really God's will that some suffer in Hell forever, thus contradicting the statement that God wants everyone to be saved?
2: Justice means that the punishment fit the crime. Torturing someone for eternity merely for not having the correct set of beliefs is not justice - how can God say it is? If you believe that Hell is an appropriate payment for any action, you are not a believer in justice - you are believer in revenge.
jack,
im not sure why telling people that hell is real would be the most important message... If a colony of people had AIDS and I had the cure the most important messgae is "You all have AIDS" it would be "You all have AIDS but I have the cure, take this and live!" The emphasis is on the cure once the diagnosis is established... OT spoke of God being just in the end, there are underlying themes right through out talking about how God would have His justice. That justice was shown more clearly through Jesus and His teachings. As for Paul he was writing to Christians on how to live so no need to warn them from hell, they were already saved, but he does warn them of slipping back and urges us to snatch others from the fire...
And Dave,
It is Gods will that we choose to follow Him. A look at the fall of satan shows that he wanted to be God and so God threw him down to earth. Then as we see in places like Job and the temptation of Jesus that God is looking for people who would defeat the enemy by free will. satan was thrown down for refusing to worship God, and now God is defeating the enemy by a band of peopole who choose to worship God.
The next point which I think we need to have a bit of a look at is the topic of sin and its seriousness and the holiness of God. The 10 commandments were there to show us Gods moral standard. God is holy. Its the sort of behaviour God expects and demands. We all fall short of it but to be near God we need this sin to be taken away. (There cant be darkness is light, purity is pure by nature there are no defects, so it is impossible for us dirty sinners to be with a holy God unless soemthing is done with our sin. Praise God He did something about it!
When we choose to follow ourselves, allah, buddha, or harry krishner instead of Jesus then we follow them to the place they are heading - hell. If you follow Jesus you will follow Him all the way to heaven.
Hell is the place we choose to go to if we deny Jesus Christs invitation to everlasting life.
God doesnt want anyone to go to hell, thats why He sent Jesus that if we believe in Him and repent we shall be saved! Hallelujah! What a wonderful promise in light of the coming judgment.
You see Hell as a choice, because, according to your metaphysics, there are only two eternal destinies. Hell is not really a choice in the sense of consciously making a decision, it is merely the "default" imposed externally on people who do not subscribe to a certain set of beliefs.
I notice you did not address God's concept of justice - eternal punishment for not holding the correct belief. An analogy is political prisoners incarcerated because they disagree with a more powerful entity like the state.
God is holding political prisoners for eternity and torturing them for eternity. For what purpose? To extract a confession? To demonstrate his love? For rehabilitation?
A couple of comments and questions for you James. Regarding sin, how do you decide what is and isn't sin? You talk about the ten commandments - how about keeping the Sabbath holy. I bet you do things on Sundays that your grandparents would have considered sinful 50 years ago. So where does our interpretation of 'sin' come into it? Also, how do you justify an emphasis on the commandments whilst ignoring the rest of the laws that were in place at that time? Why do these 10 apply now and not the rest?
Now as to hell as eternal torment, here are a couple of questions - if there is an age of understanding that keeps dead babies out of hell, why are you not a supporter of abortion, given that it would have a 100% success rate in getting souls to heaven? Secondly, are you going to be able to enjoy heaven knowing that you will have family and friends in hell? Or will you be content to just sit back on your cloud and say they deserve to be where they are? I sent you this link a while back - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html - any comments on the contents of this?
Hey David, Thanks for all the comments! Maybe I didnt explain myself very well...
I see Gods justice in that situation as God allowing people to do what they want, He has given us free-will, choices, I see that as just. When slaves are held against their will we call that unjust, we generally see democracy as just, the expression of our free will to choose.
the only problem is when people choose to do what they want they choose to reject Gods salvation in Jesus by choosing an alternate route, and in turn wind up in hell.
Its interesting to note that hell was created for the punishment of demons. Demons the fallen angels that wanted to be thir own god. Its not a place made to punish people, but when people choose to worship themselves, or other demons they follow that demon to hell where they are punished. Its just like saying when you follow Jesus you follow Him to heaven. The choices we make decide the things we follow which decides the places we go. Our destination depends upon the road we take.
So I see the justice in the fact that God is allowing us to take whatever road we want to take, He sees the wrong road and has put up signs everywhere saying turn around! Danger ahead! But sadly many people dont heed the signs. The signs to Jesus we dont deserve, it is grace that we are saved.
So in keeping with the political prisoner thing, God is actually allowing us to be whatever party we want to be on, but He also allows that party to run its course, join that party and see where you end up...
How does that sit david?
Jack,
In regards to sin and law... The 10 commandments and the other laws were there to show people how to be a KIngdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exodus 19) They were the rules God wanted people to follow if they were to be His people. They showed them Gods expectations.
in Galations 5 it talks about not living by the law but by the Spirit which is then followed up by the fruit of the Spirit. You may have heard of them. It then talks about how those who live by the Spirit have crucified their sinful nature and its passions and desires and against these things there is no law. Also when Jesus is asked what the most important commands are He says, "Love God and love others." So in this we see that the new law/command is love. (1 John)
Love is the essence of the old law and we see this demonstrated in Jesus teachings on the mount, the essence of the law is what Jesus was on about.
Now back to the hell questions, as I have said above we get to hell by following another god and how our sin separates us from God. A baby would have done neither. So the 100% success rate would be spot on! But, as Ive mentioned above we see free will as the expression of our right to choose. It is just, that we are given a choice. But my view on abortion has more to do with potential... That baby has the potential to be something, to do something, to find the love of Christ here on Earth, to enjoy the gift of life as a human, to bring hope to the world, to bring the lost to Christ, to be a beacon of redemtption and acceptance. We dont know that for sure but isnt it just that we give them an opportunity?
Family being in hell would be terrible. But in Revelation it says that there will be no pain, sadness or tears. When I am in the manifest presence of God I feel at peace, I can just sit there and forget the world, I feel healed, healthy and full. My guess is that when we are in heaven everything that is bad, sad and painful is swept away. (Revelation 20)The presence of God with love, joy and peace overpowers the rest. In saying that I havent been to heaven, so I am not sure how it will all work out.
Those are my thoughts, I dont know if they are truth or not but thanks for the questions your helping me dig deeper and think more on the subject. Let me know what you think...
"Those are my thoughts, I dont know if they are truth or not"
You make a blasphemous mockery of the Christian belief about the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth.
How can you expect to lead others to Christ when you don't know basic truths about eternal destiny? If you are having problems getting clear answers from God, and you're supposedly on the "inside", what hope have outsiders god when they listen to you?
Will the real Christians please stand up.
lol thanks for commenting dave!
you are right, i should be more bold about what I believe. I do believe what i have said is the truth. But I am leaving the door open for other people to comment and agree or disagree with me...
All this debate is making me go soft...
maybe you could comment on the other 99% of the comment i posted?
Perhaps this clip will enlighten you:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk
Post a Comment