Over the last few days I have heard a whole bunch of peoples opinion on miracles, raising the dead, their place in todays world, and if that should be part of our mission or not. Many people have laughed at suggestions that we should be doing that. Ive been shocked, angered and saddened at some of the views that have been put towards me. People Joking about it at THQ and other Salvationist places. Its a sad expression of where The Salvation Army is at in this Territory.
Firstly, True theology comes from Jesus. Fact: Jesus drove out demons. Fact: Jesus healed the sick. Fact: Jesus raised the dead. Fact: Jesus did miracles!
Secondly, its commanded. Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
Thirdly, what God commands He enables. Read 1 Corinthians 12. Not happening in your ministry? Ask God why not? Maybe its a lack of Holy Spirit...
Fourthly, These things occur regularly in many Christian churches. And I mean all of them, demons being booted, sick healed, DEAD raised back to life! We havent had someone raised back but the rest has happened... Check out the extreme prophetic link for some of the many...
Fifthly, people have always laughed at people who think raising the dead is possible. Right back from Jesus time, right through until now, people laugh at this suggestion. Read this and ask yourself, who are you in this story...
49While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. "Your daughter is dead," he said. "Don't bother the teacher any more."
50Hearing this, Jesus said to Jairus, "Don't be afraid; just believe, and she will be healed."
51When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child's father and mother. 52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But he took her by the hand and said, "My child, get up!" 55Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.
Who are you?1) The person who points out the facts
2) The person needing the miracle
3) The person encouraging faith
4) Someone laughing at a possibility of a miracle
5) The person raised from the dead
6) Ive probably missed more but you get the picture...
People laughing at the possibility of miracles is nothing new and is a sign of their dependence on themselves and not on the Holy Spirit.
The objection that raising of the dead etc "was for another time" is bullocks. Why one time and not another? Because we have medicine now? They did back then too! We still have diseases that cant be cured by medicine. Whats your point?
Who cares about the facts or what seems probable or inprobable, "Don't be afraid; just believe." Get some faith! Get the Holy Spirit! Lets have a revival. The only thing stopping it is us! God help us all!
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35 comments:
i was at thq and heard people saying it. i witnessed it myself.
my conclusion is right. TSA is in trouble.
did u even look at what the rest of the blog was saying?
I blogged on something similar the other day about 'do you believe Jesus' and one of the people from that large anon family left a stupid comment again.
People that claim to be Christians still don't believe Jesus words and teachings, so what are they really?!?! I don't think they really are Christians as such!
They probably are more-so people that want to be associated without getting their hands dirty or wanting to commit.
If you find yourself in this boat -you won't get the inheritance of Jesus, you have to be adopted into His family not just be an associate of the family!!
In John 14:12 Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."
A holy spirit inspired TSA has done and will do even more amazing miracles than Jesus performed while He was on earth. Even THQ will be part of it.
hallelujah! Im believing TSA will reap the great last harvest of souls!
just a thought as well... I think we need to remember that TSA is world wide and not restricted to Australia. There is revival occurring all over the world especially in developing countries and TSA is involved..!
If people are truly being raised from the dead today then there should be some evidence of this. Could you please point us towards two or three cases where someone has been medically certified as dead (heart stopped and brain dead) for say at least a 12 hour period that has subsequently come back to life. These would need to be cases that have been independently verified by a doctor with the necessary equipment to make a correct certification of death, so not just a story from some evangelist in a third world country which cannot be proven as true.
I have a video here of a guy in Africa for 3 days, certified dead and someone just happened to catch it on video of him being raised!
There you go anonymous, the dvd is called 'Raised from the dead' by Full Flame productions if you want to watch it! Do a google search also, you might be suprised you of little faith!!
I requested a properly medically verified raising from the dead, not a third world evangelist story. I was thinking of Bonnke when I said that, and you didn't disappoint with your example. Do a bit of research on the man - http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html for starters, then see if you can find an example of raising from the dead that can be properly verified.
Whats wrong with using your real name? Do you have a record or something else that will discredit your argument?
You seem to be proud of needing evidence to believe something and your lack of belief in the supernatural - did you have a bad childhood?
Do you believe in the ressurection of Jesus? Do you believe the words Jesus spoke?
If you keep using anonymous as your name no one will be bothered wasting their time responding soon - it's like talking to a brick wall.
Just to add also - that article you've linked to in your last comment 'anonymous', that site is mostly out of context, twisted facts around, and even some ridiculous points trying to disprove the great work of a great man! Watch it yourself - it all is quite credible!
Well James - I guess Thomas is just going to have to finger the wounds here - bring on the signs and wonders buddy! and if a stoning ensues it will be for the spread of the gospel...
fight's in front.
Simon, stop attacking me and see if you can provide a credible example of someone being raised from the dead. If it really does happen then there should be several verifiable examples of it. The very tone of your attacks confirms exactly why I and anyone who dares to question you and your friends is best staying anonymous. Don't get personal, show me the evidence for what you claim.
Hi it's another Anon poster here.
I will call myself Anon2 to avoid confusion.
Firstly SP I cannot believe that you could not see that posting a view that is opposite of you and James with names attached would be dangerous for people who are part of TSA.
You are so quick to cut people down when you disagree with them and make comments like "did you have a bad childhood?" or "one of the people from that large anon family left a stupid comment again. " or "I don't think they really are Christians as such!" or "you of little faith!!"
Can you not see that we don't really want people saying that to us in a public forum like this.
I am constantly surprised by your aggressive tone Simon Peter. It seems that you are happy to condemn anyone who disagrees with you to spending eternity in hell or something.
Now, I am not sure what I believe about raising the dead......but I am pretty sure about this.
There are no proven cases of it throughout history.
I would love you to prove me wrong but I am sure you can't.
Now maybe God doesn't want the world to know about these miracles but either way they are totally unproven.
Oh me of little faith...????
Maybe.
You are a scientist of some description right?
Surely you are aware a fact or truth has to be investigated fully before it can be verified as such.
A dodgy video made in Africa is not indisputable is it?
Now, I know that somethings cannot be proven (like intelligent design say..) but if you just have faith to tell if something is true all this would be solved by you guys just saying "It is my opinion that these things can happen. Although there is no evidence to support it, I believe that it is the work f God."
Thanks,
ANON2
Jesus came back from the dead. Lazarus did too. Smith Wigglesworth raised like 10 people from the dead. It happens all the time places like PNG and Africa. Infact very often at funerals in those places they have a time of praying that the dead would be raised and it happens. Its just part of their culture!
Check out extremeprophetic.com they have stories of it happening and links to other ministries where it is happening...
A friend of mine blogged that one week during the announcements they told the congregation that a person was dead, the next Sunday they told everyone he'd been raised! That was this year!
I dont see why there is so much doubt over some of the bonnke stuff. theres more than one case, and there is heaps of evidence like death certificates etc. Why do people call it dodgey?
Its because people dont like to accept that it can happen. same thing happend when Jesus was raised from the dead!
It still happens regularly!
But, im guessing that nothing we say will change your minds... I feel sorry for you that you dont believe God is able to do that! I also feel sorry that you can read where Jesus commands us to raise the dead yet you dont think its possible even with the holy spirit! that sucks! What sort of picture do you have of God if He doesnt raise people in light of His command to do it?
Lets not judge people but deal with the issue. thanks anons for your input, i like having people who disagree on here. i strongly believe that your names will add credibility to your arguement tho...
i just did a quick google search and there are heaps of testimonies of people being raised from the dead! heres a book that might be good too...
"Saints Who Raised the Dead"
True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles
By Fr. Albert J. Hebert, S.M.
seems like either alot of people are lieing or people actually do get raised from the dead!
From the website:
http://www.moriel.org/discernment/pastor_raised_from_dead_at_rheinhard_bonnke_event.htm
Although it can not be established if or not Eku ever died and came back to life due to a shortage of medical and legal evidence, what has been both legally and medically established beyond the pale of any doubt whatsoever is the death of 14 Bonnke devotees crushed to death at just one of Bonnke's African crusades alone, and the pending law suite for 60 million Niara that goes with it. It is too bad Bonnke didn't raise any of these victims from the dead.
If the Holy Spirit was at the centre of this discussion then we'd be coming together in unity versus biting at each other's necks. I'm amazed that everyone is buying into this stuff wholesale without asking any discerning questions. Those who do are labeled "lacking the Holy Spirit".
Read, study, verify, discern. Don't just buy into everything without questioning.
sorry, I'm anonymous3 by the way. I posted the last anon comment. Extreme prophetic? Did anyone read any of this stuff? As for signs and wonders, break out the snakes and the poison, and let's go a round.
As for Simon Peter...are you suggesting that having a criminal record would discredit the argument? Perhaps those of us who leave anonymous comments are part of the group of people who do not currently subscribe to the teaching of our newest leaders, but who because of fear of reprisal under said leadership wish to remain anonymous. Rather than barraging us with judgment, try looking at us like the numerous unnamed people of Scripture who Jesus pour out His grace upon.
Some verses from the book you believe in with all your heart!
"Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Corinthians 8:9
"Therefore let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." Romans 14:13
"We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited."
2 Corinthians 6:3
I, too, remain anonymous, it is a self preservation thing!
I don't get why people can't believe Jesus anymore, I grew up understanding that what the bible said was true, these days I kinda feel like thats not accepted anymore, and if you do stand by your beliefs, you're labelled as old-fashioned, fundamental and judgmental. Thats just my perception...
Here's what I believe -
I believe in Jesus and I try to live my life submitted to the Holy Spirit. So if the Spirit asks me to do something radical (who'd have thought praying for healing was radical!), I pray that I'll have the strength to respond every time. I pray the same for every Christian, whether you've experienced this 'crazy' stuff or not...
if the Spirit moves you - respond!
Hey I'm sure none of the 'named ones' really mean to be harsh, their beliefs are being challenged/attacked, its natural to want to stand up for what you believe! (lets try to be loving, but remember that doesn't mean we have to send flowers and mushy notes! Sometimes real love is a well-placed and humble challenge).
That said - get connected with the Spirit!
This is anonymous1, who originally asked for some medically verifiable evidence of people raised from the dead. James, I asked that you provide something more substantial than evangelist claims and stories from third world countries. You then talk about Wigglesworth, extremeprophetic.com and things that supposedly happpen in PNG and Africa. Stories that have no evidence to back them up. You say "I'm guessing that nothing we say will change your minds" - a bit of real proof would certainly help. So where is it?
There is no proof in the world that you would take because you have already made up your mind!
Why do you say developing world stories aren't any good? You sound racist! Please, no more racism on here please. I have friends who live in those countries, i have friends who have ministered there, so when you say because it is "third world" its not good enough, that says to me that my friends are not good enough!
You still havent answered this question:
"I feel sorry for you that you dont believe God is able to do that! I also feel sorry that you can read where Jesus commands us to raise the dead yet you dont think its possible even with the holy spirit! that sucks! What sort of picture do you have of God if He doesnt raise people in light of His command to do it?"
All things are possible through Christ who strengthens me!
will you at least say that it is possible?
"There is no proof in the world that you would take because you have already made up your mind!" - That's such an easy out for you isn't it, saying that you won't provide proof because I wouldn't believe it anyway.
"Why do you say developing world stories aren't any good? You sound racist!" - Another easy out, accuse me of racism. How ridiculous. It is quite obvious that it is easy for you to quote stories from the third world as it is pretty much impossible to verify any details that you claim to be true. Where is the medically verified proof of what you claim?
"will you at least say that it is possible?" - anything is possible, but it is also highly improbable. Prove it to be true.
Firstly, youve managed to dodge that question yet again... maybe anon is not a person at all...
secondly, Heres the proof:
In some places in PNG where my friends have ministered raising the dead is so common that they pray for the dead to be raised at every funeral! Its part of what they do! Its their culture!
Some of the men raised from the dead by God through Bonnke had death certificates. Theres more proof!
At a Salvation Army holiness meeting in africa this year they told everyone this person had died. The next week they told everyone hed been raised from the dead! More proof!
That book i quoted last night, 400 people raised from the dead. More proof!
Jesus raised from the dead! More proof!
My friends telling me how one of their friends was raised from the dead i think in the fifties! And that guy was raised at the morgue!
Whats wrong with wigglesworth?
Whats wrong with extreme prophetic?
Whats wrong with "third world" stories?
Whats wrong with the hundreds of stories on google?
i have given you death certificates, testimony upon testimony, culture shaped by beliefs...
There is your proof!
You will make excuses for every single one of them!
Jesus commands it. He enables it. It doesnt happen every time we pray for it. But its happend before. Its gonna happen again!
Im not copping out of anything. You are by your blatant disbelief of any of the above proofs!
At the end of the day, your going to believe what youre going to believe. im going to believe what im going to believe. i have my view you have yours. Ive shown you my proof, youve shown us your point. We disagree. lets leave it at that. but lets unite in saying "all things are possible through Christ who strenghthens us!"
James, you are frustrating beyond belief. But I am pretty stubborn so I will try and pick through your comments again -
"Firstly, youve managed to dodge that question yet again...". OK, so your 'question' was this -
"You still havent answered this question:
"I feel sorry for you that you dont believe God is able to do that! I also feel sorry that you can read where Jesus commands us to raise the dead yet you dont think its possible even with the holy spirit! that sucks! What sort of picture do you have of God if He doesnt raise people in light of His command to do it?"
Mostly statements about how you feel sorry for me. You final part being an actual question, my answer is that it would seem quite likely in view of the evidence that God chooses not to allow people to be raised from the dead today, that it was part of the ministry of Jesus and the early church to establish His authority at that time. If it was meant for today, it should be easy to see and prove it happening today. Again, for about the fifteeth time, I await from you some real proof of it happening today.
You provide no proof, only non-verifiable stories. Please provide references for where I can find the evidence of these raisings from the dead, including evidence of death pronouncements from qualified medical practitioners and subsequent certifications from those practitioners that the patient has returned to life. Don't run away from this James, as you seem to be implying with your comment "We disagree. lets leave it at that." It's not about disagreeing, it's about you spouting all sorts of things and expecting not to be called out on it when you cannot back up your assertions.
im not going to argue with you anymore. youre basically telling me all my friends are liars because they dont have death certificates. you ignore the bonnke stuff. you ignore the book i mentioned. i do have proof but its not good enough for you. im going to leave it at that ok.
wait for my next post...
actually dont wait for it, im scrapping it!lol
Have you been baptised in the Holy Spirit - He leads into all truth - what is He saying to you about all this??
James listenes to the Spirit and so do I - Jesus has the power and authority to raise the dead or do anything He pleases - He is GOD!
These comments have been reminding me of the story of "The Rich Man and Lazarus (interestingly also the name of a man Jesus raised from the dead)" in Luke 16:31 where it says "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not listen to someone who comes back from the dead"
Basicaly meaning that you keep asking for more and more solid proof, but no proof will ever be good enuf for you. Whatever it is you'll just find a way to ignore the truth.
It's interesting that people who are speakng the truth and agreeing with what God says in the bible are open about who they are, and that every person who is disagreeing with what God has said is hidding who they are.
anon, i deleted your comment not coz i cant hack it, just to stop this conversation...
im not running from anything other than a headache.
please don't comment on my blog until you've sorted your life out and can reveal yourself.
as for everyone else, thanks for commenting!
you don't understand. you're on the team that believes all of this stuff, and now some of us are on the outside, and fear to tell our names because of the repurcusssions it will have as cadets, and you know what I'm talking about.
People can keep saying we're not Holy Spirit filled or we're not believers and the rest, but I'm saying you've provided a platform to talk about this without fear. Anonymity doesn't make the questions or arguments wrong.
im not sure what else is to say though anon...
us people who believe in Holy Spirit stuff use to be the ones and still are to a large degree the ones everyone use to bag. i even got bagged at whitley college by teachers for believing there was a devil, for believing Jesus meant what He said when He was the way the truth and the life and there is no other way to the Father but by Him! same at my last church over all sorts of different Holy Spirit things.
My advice to you, take it or leave it, is that you dont need to talk about it anymore. You need to pray about it.
watch some youtube "raise the dead" vids, theres heaps of testimonies on there, listen and pray as you watch them. some may be fake, but think about it, are they all? what does God ask of us, facts or faith?
i find it hard to believe that we can call ourselves Christians and not believe God raises the dead even though Jesus being raised from the dead is at the very centre of Christianity!
the thing that made me keep going and putting my neck on the line was for the simple fact that I knew what i was on about was truth. i prayed, i cried out to God, i couldnt even sleep some nights it bugged me so much! but as i read the Bible and prayed God led me into truth, and i found peace in truth.it didnt mean it was easy, but i just knew what God was saying. I suggest you do the same and see what you come up with...
Sorry to divert the conversation, I fully back your point of view Jamsie... but, Anon, if you are to be a Cadet, hiding your identity is not going to get you anywhere. Who you are and what you believe will come out in college (I guarantee it). If you fear that it will affect your admission to college, I think you should pray about whether you actually want to sign up for life with an organisation who's beliefs don't align with yours - even if you make it 'in', your entire life will be a struggle against the theology of a movement that you don't agree with. Thats a horrible place to be.
Aside from that, speaking openly (revealing your identity) shows you are open to your integrity being examined and to be held accountable in real life. If you are unwilling to be youself on the internet (of all places), then I strongly suggest that you learn to be yourself before even THINKING about coming to college!
Pray hard Anon, this is no game.
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